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Subject: I really never thought of it that way, Murray Author: dori [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] Date Posted: 22:40:16 08/13/09 Thu In reply to: dori 's message, "Hi Murray" on 21:02:23 08/12/09 Wed I don't see the sacrifice that was exacted upon Jesus at the cross for our sins as vengeance on him from God--but rather the first step in the fulfillment of his plan for us. [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Ok, dori Author: Murray [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 22:48:32 08/13/09 Thu Fair point regardig use of the word vengeance. Exchange the words "God's wrath against sin" for vengeance then. Regardless, either you believe God poured all of his wrath out on Jesus for all sin once and for all or, alternatively, partially punished Jesus for sin and held some of his wrath against sin back to "punish America" or whatever. But, if you take the second option, you run up against this verse, "For such a High Priest was fitting for us, holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself." (Hebrews 7:26-27) Last edited by author: Thu August 13, 2009 23:31:33   Edited 1 time.

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: I see your point, but disagree with your twist or Author: dori [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:13:09 08/14/09 Fri interpretation on what was said. Those who say America will receive Godly judgement for slipping away from decent morality and allowing secularizm to take hold are using a different justification and it doesn't apply to your scriptural analogy, but to theirs. They are using the actions God took against Sodom and Gomorrah to warn us of the same fate, nothing more. Your point is well taken, too, but just a different matter that is still worthy of discussion. Do you care to expand more with it?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: dori Author: Murray [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:38:15 08/14/09 Fri It comes down to whether one views Jesus' sacrifice as adequate or inadequate.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Adequate or inadequate is not the point Author: Hillbilly [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 22:21:13 08/14/09 Fri The blood of Jesus is adequate to cleanse the world but the world must receive Jesus in order for the blood to be applied. There is no universal pardon because of Calvary. The pardon and cleansing from sins comes through confession and repentance calling on Jesus for salvation. God's mercy extended to Lot and family although they were not worthy (they were spared because of Abraham). Three partook of God's mercy and fled. The rest of the family did not. Lot's wife first left her heart and then her body in Sodom but she had the opportunity. The point has been missed as to the original statement which was relating what others have said. Hence as God does not show partiality to individuals, peoples or nations in matters of judgment He will punish America if she does not as a nation repent.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Putting words into the mouth of another - one of the oldest rthetorical dirty tricks in the book Author: Murray [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 07:57:17 08/15/09 Sat The Bible does not teach universal pardon and I would never say that. I'd love to discuss this topic with you more but not if you're going to resort to that kind of treachery.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Sir Author: Hillbilly [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:38:20 08/15/09 Sat I think if you will read a while on this forum you will find out it is totally without rancor or argument. It is a friendly room of love and fellowship around the word of God. If you think I was using treachery you are very much mistaken and I apologize if you took it that way. I have been posting here and visiting here for several years now and have never been accused of treachery nor do I use treachery. Sorry you took it that way. Topic is finished.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: apology accepted Author: Murray [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:32:08 08/18/09 Tue I appreciate your apology. Sorry I got so hot under the collar also. However, I don't believe in universal pardon/salvation and never said so. Therefore, to be accused of such is not taken kindly. Please accept my apology if my objection was perceived as being too strong and/or unfair.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Yes, the topic is finished Author: dori [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:34:22 08/15/09 Sat Murray, I am asking you to modify your tone or leave. This is our refuge from the name calling and actual treachery we have all encountered on other forums. You are welcome to stay and discuss things with us, but no one was twisting your words. If there was any twisting going on, it was by you. You chose to dissect a few words from a very long lesson to make an obscure point. I think this is a repeat of what happened the first time you came here. You stayed a short time, had words with someone--I imagine it was me--and then left. This is not a debate forum.... it is one of sharing and caring. You're welcome to share with us, but not welcome to pick fights. Thank you for your cooperation.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: interesting Author: Murray [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 10:48:02 08/16/09 Sun Doris, I have never in my life claimed that the Bible advocates "universal pardon" or that I believe in such a thing and yet someone can put those words into my mouth and I should just be nice about it? Then you side with the person that slandered me? Wow, that's stunning. I never took you for a person that would enable slander. Last edited by author: Sun August 16, 2009 11:24:21   Edited 1 time.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Murray, he didn't do that Author: dori [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:39:02 08/16/09 Sun He wasn't accusatory at all. In fact, he was very respectful in pointing out where he felt you erred. Maybe you should read your posts and see why someone would draw the conclusion that you were advocating universal salvation and reword them for clarity, rather than taking umbrage and calling him trecherous. There isn't a treacherous bone in the man's body. Shame on you for accusing him of it. I had enough of that kind of thing at R1 and so did Hillbilly. I would have thought you did, too. This is a place of sharing ideas and respecting the opinions of others and not a debate board. I don't allow any rancor here. You made a good beginning to a dialogue, but as soon as you were met with disagreement you took it personally. I thought spending months at Potpourri with Gene and Bob would have given you a tougher hide. You've been with them too long, methinks. Back off from your anger and sarcasm and share your thoughts with us. You're free to stay under those conditions.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: re: drawing the conclusion that I was advocating universal salvation Author: Murray [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:23:10 08/16/09 Sun Ok, that's fair. Tell me from where the conclusion that I believe in universal salvation comes and we'll go from there. I did not say that of course and will be fascinated to see how someone else could possibly arrive at that conclusion. Last edited by author: Sun August 16, 2009 22:19:48   Edited 3 times.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Hi Murray Author: dori [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 23:41:03 08/17/09 Mon In case you're checking in and wondering why I didn't answer you, please refer to the first thread and Julie's plea to you. Then read Hillbilly's reply to her. I hope you will stick around to add your thoughts. 8-)