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Subject: Here come two cents ( mine) Author: JulPisacane [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] Date Posted: 18:02:29 08/16/09 Sun Some of the discussion going back and forth has been the following : HB--As the saying goes "If God doesn't punish America for her sins He will have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah." Murray - "He would then have to apologize to Jesus. "And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." (I John 2:2) Murray : As to my point, I scratch my head sometimes when people, in effect, belittle the sacrifice of Jesus and misunderstand the grace which God extended to mankind through the death of his Son. As long as the church is still here, we have been given the ministry of reconciliation. The Scripture reads as follows: "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them,, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. (II Corinthians 5:19) If we have been given the ministry of reconciliation, we are called to proclaim reconciliation and non-imputation of sins through Christ. To, in effect, proclaim God's vengeance is the polar opposite of what we have been called to do. Did of did or did not God exact his vengeance against Jesus? I think He did. Otherwise, wouldn't the cross be a partial sacrifice? A sacrifice for some sins but not for others? My God does not do things half way! Fair point regardig use of the word vengeance. Exchange the words "God's wrath against sin" for vengeance then. Regardless, either you believe God poured all of his wrath out on Jesus for all sin once and for all or, alternatively, partially punished Jesus for sin and held some of his wrath against sin back to "punish America" or whatever. But, if you take the second option, you run up against this verse, "For such a High Priest was fitting for us, holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself." (Hebrews 7:26-27) HB The blood of Jesus is adequate to cleanse the world but the world must receive Jesus in order for the blood to be applied. There is no universal pardon because of Calvary. The pardon and cleansing from sins comes through confession and repentance calling on Jesus for salvation. God's mercy extended to Lot and family although they were not worthy (they were spared because of Abraham). Three partook of God's mercy and fled. The rest of the family did not. Lot's wife first left her heart and then her body in Sodom but she had the opportunity. The point has been missed as to the original statement which was relating what others have said. Hence as God does not show partiality to individuals, peoples or nations in matters of judgment He will punish America if she does not as a nation repent. Murray : The Bible does not teach universal pardon and I would never say that. I'd love to discuss this topic with you more but not if you're going to resort to that kind of treachery. __________ HB: I think if you will read a while on this forum you will find out it is totally without rancor or argument. It is a friendly room of love and fellowship around the word of God. If you think I was using treachery you are very much mistaken and I apologize if you took it that way. I have been posting here and visiting here for several years now and have never been accused of treachery nor do I use treachery. Sorry you took it that way. Topic is finished. ___________________________________________________ Murray , HB didn't lay accusation toward you but was rather confirming the truth about the blood of Christ and who it covers. Your first response toward HB can have others think that you do lean toward Universal Salvation . That being said , Hillbilly offered a sincere apology to you and knowing Hillbilly for all these years I can tell you he did not mean to offend you ,and probably feels bad that things turned out this way - but just meant to take a stand for the Truth of The Bible . Please accept his apology , Murray . It was just a misunderstanding with no harm intended. Hillbilly is a gentleman and a faithful man of God . Hope you take all of this into consideration and join in more discussions. Thanks , Julie [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

[> Subject: Thank you, Julie Author: dori [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 22:30:49 08/16/09 Sun I hope your words will be taken to heart by Murray and Hillbilly will reconsider his dismissal of the topic. I think it's worth one more try, don't you? 8-)

[> [> Subject: Yes Author: JulPisacane [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 05:54:16 08/17/09 Mon It's worth another try and the topic brought up relates to the judgment of God upon nations and the governing leaders which HB referred to in his Daniel lesson. It's an important lesson spoken of throughout Scripture . We have certainly learned about those who were in bondage in Egypt ,but who did God raise up ? The Lord set Joseph over Egypt . Where was Moses raised ...but in the Pharoah's house and would evnetually help free the children Israel at the command of the Lord . All part of God's plan. HB had written in his Daniel study : In God sovereignty He for His purposes and according to His will places rulers in this world. I have to agree and perhaps we can further this discussion with a stronger focus concerning God's judgment on nations. God bless you always ,Dori . Have a great week, Julie

[> [> Subject: Yes, it is a topic that I could use more teaching on Author: dori [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:22:24 08/17/09 Mon From all three of you. 8-) Bless you, too, Julie, for what you add to any discussion. Hugs~

[> Subject: white flag waving :) Author: Hillbilly [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 17:22:19 08/17/09 Mon I will try to get started on it some tonight but am presently mowing the hay field more commonly known as the yard. Lot of rain and a week of revival meetings at the Church and you can imagine how wooly the yard has gotten. You know I haven't ever been able to refuse you folks. (grin)

[> [> Subject: That's why we love you so much, Hillbilly...grin Author: dori [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 22:17:51 08/17/09 Mon You are ever the compliant teacher. Get the mowing done, of course, but we'll only give you a couple of days respite... grin xo dori

[> [> [> Subject: Yes Author: JulPisacane [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 05:13:59 08/18/09 Tue Just a couple of days . We'll allow him that... Looking forward to it, HB. God bless you , Julie

[> Subject: re: Your first response toward HB can have others think that you do lean toward Universal Salvation Author: Murray [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:04:00 08/18/09 Tue Thanks for the offer to reopen this conversation as it is very near and dear to my heart. Please help me understand the thought process that would bring someone to the above referenced conclusion. Thanks again for your offer and in advance for you answer!

[> [> Subject: Hi Murray Author: JulPisacane [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:02:57 08/18/09 Tue I can tell you that I have read alot of articles brought to forums ( here as well ) that center around the verse you posted in an attmept to teach universal salvation. Here are two articles online that include the verse you posted ( 1 John 2:2 ) ---as a reason to back up the doctrine of Universal Salvation. http://richardwaynegarganta.com/150%20Reasons%20For%20Believing%20In%20Universal%20Salvation.htm # 33 __________________________ http://www.ais-gwd.com/~cdevans/tura.htm # 19 _________________ Also Murray ,last year on this forum there was another participant who would bring in writings from others that were teaching universal salvation ,and expected us to accept these teachings. HB and I declined. She got nasty and Dori had to delete several of her posts. I think I've been here for at least three years and the only bump that happened here was because of the universal doctrines that came in here and the poster wanting us to cheer it and applaud it instead of receiving Scriptural correction . It is not that we aren't willing to discuss it as an issue , - but we will be truthful to proclaim we do not accept such a doctrine that goes against the whole of Scripture . Overall ,this forum has really been like an oasis to us . This was the intent and focus for Dori having it . The title - Friends Sharing Scripture -- is exactly what we like to do here . We enjoy the discussions on Scripture as well as sharing other events going on in this world today , talking about our own lives once in awhile and bringing up prayer requests to one another . We try to keep it a friendly room , a little cyber home where we can just enter into good discussion without personal attacks. Murray ---please join us and forgive any miscommunication that may have occurred . And if you have something to offer on Judgment of the nations , please bring it here . Hope all of this has been of some help to you . God bless and have a great week , Julie

[> [> [> Subject: let's see if this helps us understand things better Author: Murray [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:21:54 08/18/09 Tue Julie, is what you're saying as follows?: 1.) Other people previously posted some of the same Scriptures Murray did. 2.) Those people believed in universal salvation/pardon. 3.) Therefore, Murray also believes likewise?

[> [> [> [> Subject: Murray, this isn't going to go anywhere Author: dori [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 17:28:09 08/18/09 Tue You have a chip on your shoulder and none of us cares to knock it off. I think in the interest of the spirit of this board, I'm going to have to ask you to leave. I'm sorry. God bless you.

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: dori, you're right Author: Murray [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 18:32:23 08/18/09 Tue It is not going anywhere because I've been falsely accused and you keep jumping in and retarding the process of getting to the bottom of that and clearing the air of it. Ultimately, if you allowed it, this gross misrepresentation of my views could get cleared up and I think it's important that it is. So far, I have not been able to determine how it is that someone could possibly believe that anything I said would lead someone to falsely accuse me of being a universalist. I do understand of course that others have posted similar Scriptures to the ones I posted and they turned out to believe in universalism. Therefore, I was merely asking Julie whether she was making the jump of "others have posted these Scriptures and had these beliefs, therefore Murray must also." I fail to see how my questions represent a chip on my shoulder. If being stung by a horrible false accusation equates to having a chip on my shoulder, then I guess I have one. I think it's only natural to want to get out from under that cloud but you seem to feel differently, for whatever reason. I've also noticed that you have never once said anything that comes within smelling distance of a defense of me. Certainly you know that I do not believe in universal salvation, or at least that I do not as far as you know. Why not? You can email your response if you like. One is not expected, however.

[> [> [> [> Subject: Murray- In answer to your questions... Author: JulPisacane [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 19:01:04 08/18/09 Tue M-- 1.) Other people previously posted some of the same Scriptures Murray did. -- It was your posting of that specific verse as a response to Hillbilly's bringing up God's judgment on Sodom of Gomorrah and then your continued comments after that Scripture where you wrote : " Otherwise, wouldn't the cross be a partial sacrifice? A sacrifice for some sins but not for others? My God does not do things half way! " _____________________________________________________ M 2.) Those people believed in universal salvation/pardon. --- Those people were wanting us to believe in the doctrines of Universal pardon was the problem as stated above . They were false teachings which we will not follow ,accept -or be an audience to . M 3.) Therefore, Murray also believes likewise? You will make known to others what it is you believe or not and it seems you are unable to do so here or just don't want to -- and it looks like Dori has made the call that this may not be the place for you . This is her forum and we respect and trust her discernment. Most of us here need a friendly ,resting spot ...some more than others . To God be all the glory , Julie

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Julie Author: Murray [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:59:14 08/19/09 Wed I believe we are in New Covenant that is a signficant and dramatic departure from the Old. I believe the church has been given the ministry of reconciliation. As it says in the Scriptures, "that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation." (2 Corinthians 5:19) I also believe that, "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment." (Hebrews 9:27) If someone does not accept that their sins were imputed to Jesus during their life on earth, their sins will be imputed to them at the judgment which occurs after they die and they will suffer eternal punishment in a literal hell. This is at great variance with those who believe in "universal pardon." I believe the weight of Scripture is that the church cannot both proclaim non-imputation of sins (ministry of reconciliation) and also have a role in proclaiming judgment from God of any sort to befall people while they are living on this earth. First, this would be judgment before death which is contrary to the teaching that first comes death and then judgment. Second, this invites the question, "Is God currently imputing sin/sins to people or is He not?" Obviously, it can't be both. Last edited by author: Wed August 19, 2009 16:12:14   Edited 2 times.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Thanks for your response, Murray Author: dori [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 15:51:24 08/19/09 Wed I think some of the misperception we had at the beginning of this discussion was because of the seeming judgment upon individual Americans, not the whole population, when some say America is in for a big correction by God for lapsing deeper and deeper into sin. To say that isn't to judge the sinners--it is saying that the country itself is at fault. We as a society have let the morals decay by not continuing to speak out against sin for fear of being called fanatics and right-wing wackos. It isn't a judgment on the individual, but on the population as a whole. And I think that is what Hillbilly and Julie were addressing. Thank you for better stating your position. I hope it clears things up for all concerned.

[> Subject: Universal Salvation vs. Limited Atonement Author: Sim [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 21:39:59 08/18/09 Tue Jesus died to fulfill the law that requires a "death" for every sin, (wages of sin is death) Jesu didn't come to "condemn the world" "BUT" that the world through him "MIGHT BE" saved, not "would be saved". Where people get mixed up, Universalist/Calvinist expecially, is thinking that Jesus took away "SIN", he didn't, he took away the "LAW", nailing it to his cross, This opened the door that we "MIGHT BE" saved without having to die as the law requires. "OUR SIN" still exist until we "Crucify the body of sin", the "life of the flesh is in the "blood", when we become willing to "Sacrifice" the "life of the flesh" (blood) for the "SPIRIT", "OUR SIN" is taken away, no shedd blood, no remission of sin, we have to make a "blood sacrifice/offering" just as Jesus did, to "Conform to his image". Le 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and.... I have given it to you..... upon the altar..... to make an atonement for your souls:..... for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. The "Day of Atonement" a "Scapegoat" (Jesus) and a "Goat for the people" (body of sin) had to be sacrificed before "Atonement" was "complete", Either "goat" (Jesus/body of sin) sacrificed without the other "goat" will not save, As Paul said, burning his body without "charity" (love/God) was worthless, Both "goats" have to be sacrificed before your sins are "taken away".

[> [> Subject: Hi Sim Author: dori [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 22:09:45 08/18/09 Tue Nice to see you here, too. I'm kind of keeping an eye on Murray's next response to Julie and you before I just block him from posting here. He seems more intent on continuing an argument that only he is participating in than to actually talk about the subject at hand. Kind of reminds me of R1, doesn't it you? Good ol Mountainman II comes to mind. *-) Did you retire again or are they still working you overtime?

[> [> [> Subject: Re-TARTED Author: Sim [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 07:18:28 08/19/09 Wed Did you retire again or are "they" still working you overtime? "they", is now "Barb", I've been Remodeling the kitchen, "SENSE" I'm retired, make's "sense" to her but not a "retart" like me. LOL. I've made one trip since January, they've called wanting me to come back, but my "honeydo list" keeps me busy here at the house and I don't need the money, I must be gettng "old", it seems the less I have to do with people, the happier I am, I suppose becoming "Grumpy" is just around the corner. lol Or maybe I've finally settled into "Retirement mode", recon???

[> [> [> [> Subject: Retirement is a frame of mind... grin Author: dori [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:11:45 08/19/09 Wed I think I retired 20 years ago. *-) How was vacation Bible School this summer?

[> [> [> Subject: Hey, Sim... I just thought of something.... Author: dori [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 10:04:14 08/19/09 Wed I'll be pretty close to where you live in October. I'm coming over to Clemmons, NC (near Winston-Salem) to the National Shiba Inu dog show and Charlie and I will come back by way of Gatlinburg. Any sites you know of around there we shouldn't miss?

[> [> [> [> Subject: Tour Guide, lol Author: Sim [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:31:31 08/20/09 Thu How was vacation Bible School this summer? We had quiet a few kids this year, It runs in "cycles", peaking when one generation grows up and start having kids and their kids become old enough to start coming, it's all tied to the Baby boomer generation, We have several kids who's parents attended when they were the age of the kids. Any sites you know of around there we shouldn't miss? According to PC MILER, (trucker program) it's 495 mile from Gatlinburg to St Louis, Mo, but only 465 coming through "Cumberland Gap", So any destination in IL, would be shorter "Through the gap". The "Gap" is the passage way through the mountains that Daniel Booone led 1/4 million people, the old road is closed to traffic, (tunnel) but you can still park/walk into gap, and nice view from the "pinnacle" overlook on top of the mountain, even my house. LOL The Cumberland Gap park is the largest "Historical Park" in the nation, they have a website, get an idea of what to expect. If you decide to come this way, let me know, I'll help with the routing/lodging/whatever, even buy ya'll a cup of coffee. (grin)