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Subject: I John 1:9 Author: Murray [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] Date Posted: 05:52:46 08/21/09 Fri In reply to: Hillbilly 's message, "The Ball of" on 16:47:48 08/20/09 Thu It is an enormously difficult task to take I John 1:9 as proof that believers need to be cleansed of their sins over and over and over again after salvation. It is the only verse in the entire New Testament that possibly could be used to make that argument and the weight of the rest of the New Testament is against it. The interpretation of this verse that, all things considered, makes the most sense is that this and verse 8 right before it were written to score a bullseye against false Gnostic doctrine. Gnostics believe that this world is illusory, that flesh is illusory and that sin is also. Therefore, they believe that Jesus did not really come in the flesh and that this is also an illusion. To them, only Spirit is real. This is why John makes such a point of saying that he had seen, heard and touched Jesus. That Jesus was with the Father and manifested to us, etc. In verse 8, John says, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." This, again, is a direct bullseye against the false Gnostic belief that sin is of the flesh and that flesh, being an illusion, does not really exist and, therefore, sin also does not. In other words, this is a totally false belief and the truth is not in a person who believes this. John then gives the solution to this situation in verse 9 which is to confess sin, receive forgiveness of sins and cleansing from all unrighteousness. In other words, to be saved. [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Really it's not difficult at all Author: Hillbilly [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 21:23:07 08/21/09 Fri "It is an enormously difficult task to take I John 1:9 as proof that believers need to be cleansed of their sins over and over and over again after salvation. It is the only verse in the entire New Testament that possibly could be used to make that argument and the weight of the rest of the New Testament is against it." Only if a person reads into the New Testament that belief without the other evidence to the contrary. The verses just below John 1 show that John was addressing those whom he considered to be his "little children". This is much in the same context as Paul calling Timothy his son in the faith. 1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. Scholarship may say that John was addressing lost agnostics but the Bible doesn't. Proof of doctrine is scripture with scripture not scripture with scholarship. Consider, if you will 2 Corinthians 5:10-11 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. Go from the beginning of this chapter and find who the "we" are in it's context. You won't find Paul addressing the lost here. "we" refers to himself in company with the others of like faith. The judgment seat of Christ is Christian judgment opposed to the White Throne judgment (Rev. 20:11-15) Paul tells plainly that at this judgment we receive for what we have done in the flesh. Good or bad. In 1 Cor. 3:10-18, cited in a previous post we find Christians suffering loss at this judgment. It is the same judgment of 2 Cor. 5:10-11. In verse 15 it plainly states: "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." The work is burned but the man remains saved. I cite again "all unrighteousness is sin" (1 Jn. 5:17) Peter sinned after he was saved and Paul called him on it. All one has to do is read Galatians 2:11-21 to realize this truth. Read 1 Cor. 5:1-5 and see the account of a Christian caught up in a sexual relationship with his mother in law. verse 5 plainly states his spirit is saved in the day of the Lord. Read the story of Annanias and Sapphira in Acts 5:1-11. Many would say they were lost but their crime was greed and lying before God about their giving of the money received for land sold. Remember these two were numbered in a group that suffered great persecution for their faith in Jesus. They risked imprisonment and death for their faith. I say they were sinners saved by grace just like I am and through weakness of the flesh sinned a sin unto death to be made an example before the Church. No, I would have to say 1 John 1:9 is not the only place we go for proof we must continually confess our sins to obtain forgiveness. Paul had to come to grips with his weakness daily. He said in Romans 7:18-25 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. The inward man stands clean and perfected the outward man remains dirty and sinful. As long as the inward man controls the outward man their is no need of repentance of sins commited after salvation but if you find yourself as Paul either doing acts of unrighteousness or thinking unclean thoughts you need to carry it to the throne of God and ask for forgiveness. He is just to forgive. If this is done constantly and in sincerity then the sins will not meet you at the judgement seat of Christ.

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Thank you, HB Author: dori [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 23:14:20 08/22/09 Sat Your last paragraph reaffirms Catholic teaching that we must strive daily to remain in a state of grace; and if we stumble, to seek forgiveness from the Lord. Your study on this topic has been enlightening. Thanks to Murray for bringing it up. *-)

[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: With one difference Author: Hillbilly [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 13:27:23 08/23/09 Sun concerning the "state of grace". I believe the Catholic Church teaches that one must "get right" to re-enter into salvation while the passages I pointed to show that sin brings punishment to the Christian but does not include loss of salvation. To confess and repent of those sins is to have them removed so as not to suffer loss at the judgment seat of Christ. That loss concerns rewards and not salvation. Thanks for posting that.

[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Yes, I think that's close, but Author: dori [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 19:44:34 08/23/09 Sun The church teaches we can be forgiven for sins. Where we differ from what you believe is that if we would happen to die while not in a state of grace (that means we sinned and didn't confess it to God and ask for forgiveness) we will not be saved. I think we all pretty much believe the same thing about salvation, we just have different takes on some of these points.