VoyForums
[ Show ]
Support VoyForums
[ Shrink ]
VoyForums Announcement: Programming and providing support for this service has been a labor of love since 1997. We are one of the few services online who values our users' privacy, and have never sold your information. We have even fought hard to defend your privacy in legal cases; however, we've done it with almost no financial support -- paying out of pocket to continue providing the service. Due to the issues imposed on us by advertisers, we also stopped hosting most ads on the forums many years ago. We hope you appreciate our efforts.

Show your support by donating any amount. (Note: We are still technically a for-profit company, so your contribution is not tax-deductible.) PayPal Acct: Feedback:

Donate to VoyForums (PayPal):

Mon, May 18 2026, 7:56:13Login ] [ Contact Forum Admin ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time | Archives: 12[3] ]
Subject: Re: Material Possessions


Author:
QUITTNER
[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]
Date Posted: Mon, Jun 24 2002, 9:57:23
In reply to: Jeff Davis 's message, "Re: Material Possessions" on Sat, Jun 22 2002, 15:31:30

It seems that Jesus at times wrote about the special community called "The Kingdom of God", whose members were called "The Poor", and at other times about what went on in "The World"; in general the message was for all to be as GOOD as possible. "The least" were those who were members of the Kingdom, while "the first" were the leaders of the outsiders who didn't want to become members of the Kingdom because they were quite satisfied, even with the military occupation of the country by the Romans.

You wrote, in part: >>> ... we should not assist the poor unless we enter into some sort of commune...<<<
..... Wrong. The Kingdom of God was a welfare society that needed a lot of charity money from outsiders for the members, called "The Poor", who lived as communal lifestyle per Acts 2 and Acts 4.
..... Modern churches also collect a lot of money, but they do NOT provide for their members, still living a sinful lifestyle in The World, FREE food, FREE shelter and FREE Clothing.

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:
[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Material Possessions


Author:
Jeff Davis
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: Thu, Jun 27 2002, 19:00:52

Again, Mr. Quittner, my response was only to your contention that, as you wrote, "Unless you want to enter such a communal society do NOT give your possessions to poor outsiders." I believe that this is directly contradictory to the teachings of Jesus, no matter what games you can play with His words in the gospels. I can see throughout your posts that you believe this communal system is the ideal for Christians to reach for, yet some of the conclusions you draw from your analysis of the same two passages from Acts conflict with the rest of scripture. Though the church did opperate in such a manner early on, the crux of Jesus's teaching on the subject was to help those who are poor, sick, hungry, or lonely. If you know of any other passages within scripture that support witholding personal possessions from poor outsiders, I encourage you to post them.
[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Material Possessions


Author:
QUITTNER
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: Fri, Jun 28 2002, 9:10:54

I repeat: As I understand it, there were TWO SEPARATE SOCIETIES. The "usual" society was called "The World" as in "worldly", and the other society was called "The Kingdom of God", or "...of Heaven". The Kingdom was a welfare society designed primarily at that time to help, I repeat, those who deserved to be helped and were despised or otherwise at or near the bottom of the social scale. Members of the Kingdom were called "The Poor" by outsiders because they had no money, and didn't need any, because they were provided for by charity, and there was a great need to obtain as much money or equivalent from the outside as possible for use of the members of the Kingdom. Obviously those in the world could do with their property including their money what they wanted, including giving it to those outsiders with need of money or need of other handouts, but the call for charity by Jesus was primarily for use by "The POOR" WITHIN THE KINGDOM.

You wrote, in part: >>> I can see throughout your posts that you believe this communal system is the ideal for Christians to reach for, ... <<<
.... It seems to me that ONLY people living in such communities are following Jesus and are Christians, and no others should have the right to call themselves "Christians".

You also wrote: >>> the crux of Jesus's teaching on the subject was to help those who are poor, sick, hungry, or lonely. <<<
..... Yes, but ONLY those who DESERVED to be helped, and who were members of the Kingdom, with their vows of moral/ethical future behavior. No others.
[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Material Possessions


Author:
Jeff Davis
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: Tue, Sep 10 2002, 18:26:13

Mr. Quittner, after the Bible, we have no further evidence or writings on how the church, or followers of the teachings of Jesus functioned until around the 3rd century. I encourage you to read up on the accounts of their lifestyle, and you will see that even in the earliest accounts we have of Christianity, there is not a communal imperitive. I still have yet to see you present a scriptural reason for your stance other than the descriptive accounts in Acts that do not necessarily set a precedent for anything. Let me see scriptural evidence, and I will listen to you.
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Material Possessions


Author:
QUITTNER
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: Fri, Sep 13 2002, 11:38:27

Jeff Davis, I really don't care whether you "listen to me" or not. Obviously you have not seen any of the many non-biblical sources of information showing what happened in that general area around the time when Jesus lived, and what changes, with many new denominations/versions of Christianity, were made after the crucifixion of Jesus. Ask your local librarian to help you!
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Material Possessions


Author:
Robert Wilson
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: Tue, Sep 24 2002, 21:15:26

Hi Jeff:

I've read your exchange with Quittner with some interest. Here are my thoughts. First, all Christians did -not- give up all their possessions to "join the club," so to speak. Look at Zaccheus! He says to Jesus, as they are dining at his house, that he is going to repay all that he's taken unfairly and then give a *portion* of his income to the poor. Jesus says, in response, that "salvation" has come to Zaccheus' house. Good enough for Jesus, good enough for me. Zaccheus simply repents for his sins, then makes a generous move to boot. He doesn't join the band of travellers or anything like that. He just repents and Jesus says he laid hold on salvation.

I also see no reason to believe that every time Jesus says "the poor" we are to believe he speaks of himself and the disciples. That would be somewhat bizarre, and I'd need a scripture to show me the relationship between the terms "disciples" and "the poor." Nowhere does the Bible say (and Jesus certainly doesn't say), "Hey, guys, by the way, when I say 'the poor,' I mean my disciples here." I would lean toward the dictionary definition of a term, unless we find some explanatory passage or phrase in the Bible that clearly SAYS, "the Poor = the Disciples."

That said, your question is a good one. How do we make ourselves wise stewards of the resources God has given us? Communal living is an option in scripture, but you don't see everyone participating. Ananias and Sapphira are, for example, totally free to NOT turn over their property, and are only penalized for saying they have turned everything over, when in fact they have kept some. It's the lie, not the withholding, that gets them in trouble. Peter makes that totally clear when he rebukes them.

The key in ordering our finances, I think, is to be reasonable, prayerful, generous, and wise in setting our priorities and budget. We should set our priorities as follows, under God's direction: 1. the Word says he who does not provide for his family "is worse than an infidel," so our family is #1. 2. The Bible says we should provide "especially for those of the household of faith," so our next priority is the church and those in the church who need our assistance. Finally, 3. The world, where we are obligated to give to all the poor in general (and I don't use the term "poor" as does Quittner).

By the way, Quittner, if the disciples didn't have any money, why does it say Judas held the money bag, and was a thief? You can't have a money bag without some money, and you can't have a thief among you unless you've got something to steal. And as far as Jesus being poverty stricken, he wasn't. Joseph was a carpenter. Back then, a "carpenter" isn't somebody that builds cabinets and window frames. Now, being a carpenter in the Fertile Crescent (otherwise known as "a great big desert with very few trees") means you are an artisan, because wood is an imported product for them. It also means you are wealthy, because wood is a very valuable commodity that is difficult to use again if you foul up while carving something. That means Joseph would have had to have enough cash around to be able to not only import expensive woods from far away, he would have to have the financial wherewithal to occasionally eat the loss from a flawed carving. Jesus' family was wealthy, not poor... and there is no evidence he was estranged from his family. After all, he took Mary around with him for awhile at least. If you doubt me, look in the Old Testament passages written in the same region, and count the number of times some sort of wood is referred to as a pricey and extremely valuable item.

Robert
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Material Possessions


Author:
QUITTNER
[ Edit | View ]

Date Posted: Tue, Oct 01 2002, 11:18:34

Robert, in your post addressed to Jeff you included: >>> ... I also see no reason to believe that every time Jesus says "the poor" we are to believe he speaks of himself and the disciples. That would be somewhat bizarre, and I'd need a scripture to show me the relationship between the terms "disciples" and "the poor." Nowhere does the Bible say (and Jesus certainly doesn't say), "Hey, guys, by the way, when I say 'the poor,' I mean my disciples here." I would lean toward the dictionary definition of a term, unless we find some explanatory passage or phrase in the Bible that clearly SAYS, "the Poor = the Disciples." <<<
..... There are books on this subject. For example, see the (1974) book by Martin Hengel "Property and Riches in the Early Church. Aspects of a Social History of Early Christianity." For examples: Page 19: "...the Essene community of salvation understands itself to be the 'poor'. ... The early church in Palestine later uses the term 'poor' ('ebyonim) to describe itself in a very similar sense.
". And on page 34 it says " The Jewish Christians in Palestine and Syria .... later called themselves 'Ebionites', in other wards 'the poor'." These are the people who were members of the Kingdom of God with its strict requirements of obedience to God and perpetual poverty, similarly as is still being practised and required of the members of religious orders and of other societies. For examples see the Web.

You also wrote: >>> ... if the disciples didn't have any money, why does it say Judas held the money bag .... You can't have a money bag without some money... <<<
..... Individual members of the kingdom had no money, but the church (= the Kingdom of God) as a whole needed a lot of money to trade with the world (the nonmembers, the outsiders) and Judas was the treasurer. He himself, just as Jesus and all of the other members of the kingdom, was poor too. It wasn't at all easy to operate the kingdom and lots of money had to be collected from outsiders as charity, with all membsrs getting FREE food, FREE shelter and FREE clothing in exchange for unpaid work. But they were not self-sufficient, and that money was needed to supply the reasonable needs of the members. All prospective members of the kingdom, before admission as members, had to give all of their property to the administration of the kingdom (the church). See Acts 2:44-47 and Acts 4:32-37. In the 21st century churches still collect a lot of money, but their members are still in the world, and are NOT given these FREE items in a communal setting.

..... You also wrote about Joseph. He wasn't a member of the kingdom of God, so there was no need for him to give all of his property to the administration. Jesus complied with the rules too and, just like all the other members of the kingdom, was also poor. See also Matt.5:3, Luke 6:20 and 14:33 for examples.


[ Contact Forum Admin ]


Forum timezone: GMT-8
VF Version: 3.00b, ConfDB:
Before posting please read our privacy policy.
VoyForums(tm) is a Free Service from Voyager Info-Systems.
Copyright © 1998-2019 Voyager Info-Systems. All Rights Reserved.