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Re: Will SOMEONE explain the Appeal of B/S to me? -- Indri, 21:00:23 07/18/02 Thu
>So far, the best conclusion I've been able to make is
>that it's source (like that of pretty much every ship
>out there) is projection.
Of course it is! What else would it be? I mean, you can read and write a pairing out of pure intellectual interest, but you're more likely to invest emotionally in a character or characters you identify with.
That's why a criticism of someone's pairing preference can feel like a personal rebuke---"You're fantasy is wrong!". I can understand that you don't get S/B. But in the interest of fostering common understanding etc etc blah I will tell you some of my pet reasons and theories (based on viewing up to "Smashed").
I should mention here that I read S/B (amongst others) but I don't write it. Given the list of excellent authors other posters have mentioned, I don't feel I'd have anything to add.
My first explanation is a sort of a dodgy Feminism 101 argument. It's based in part on what some academics have written about slashfic. Given that most slash is m/m but most of its writers and readers are women, it's been argued that the genre is popular not just because of the porn aspect (similar to the way there are many "lesbian" stories in het men's magazines) but also because it allows women to rewrite romances in a setting where gender roles are irrelevant or blurred. Also, there used to be a dearth of interesting female characters to write about (not true of BtVS, of course).
If this theory is true---and I have no idea whether it is or not---then this might shed light on the popularity of S/B. Both Spike and Buffy are flawed and complicated characters who possess a mixture of very strong "female" traits and very strong "male" traits (I'll grant that other BtVS characters, such as Willow, also fit this description). This is appealing to those of us bored with more stereotyped romances and provides some of the freedoms of slashfic. Also, it's easy to identify with both characters simultaneously. Gender isn't irrelevant in this relationship---Buffy desperately wants to be an "ordinary" girl and Spike constantly has to shore up his sense of self-worth and masculinity by being "The Big Bad"---but I find this complexity to be both more interesting and somehow more "realistic" than the vast, vast majority of on-screen romances.
By "realistic" I of course mean "in that strange metaphorical way of BtVS". This is why I find the violence less disturbing than I would under other circumstances. It's (at least partly) metaphorical, representing the more common psychological damage that people can do to each other.
Sure they're bad for each other. But you can hope it's the temporary bad of change and that they'll work it all out and be better for it. Because (again with the metaphor and projection) if those crazy kids can sort things out, maybe everyone can.
Besides, if it's truly bad for both of them then there's angst. And angst+sexual tension=many a fine fanfic.
Also, you know, some of us want to read about a woman being in charge for once. Buffy makes the decisions and she's physically stronger. I find that I am much less interested in S/B stories where the power balance shifts dramatically in Spike's favour (such as "100 Years of Solitude"). Other fanfics depict the pair as being true equals and I like those too.
Then you can also interpret Buffy as "exhausted career woman" who needs an emotionally supportive man to prop her up at home. This seems to be a common element of many S/B fanfics. Spike also spends much time reassuring Buffy that _she_ isn't a monster. Is this a metaphor for "woman afraid of her own competency"? I don't know.
Also, at this stage, I'd vote for anything or anyone that might make Buffy happy. Truly. If she found happiness with a pet rock I'd read Buffy/Pet Rock fic.
Personally, I find it a bit sad that one of the few TV relationships I can identify with at all is between a violent and depressed control-freak and an even more violent and almost as depressed ex-serial-killer. But I think that's more a reflection of the inadequate variety of television writing than of me. I'm just never going to be able to think of myself as Ally McBeal.
Also, don't dismiss the "JM and SMG are cute" explanation out of hand. Perhaps I just don't watch enough television, but most of the other shows I watch have heroes who have the broad-shouldered, square-jaw physiology that I personally don't find attractive. If "slim and athletic" or "petite blonde" rocks your boat, then well, you have to take your jollies where you can.
Oh and yeah, like Lanie says, because it's fun.
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Re: Will SOMEONE explain the Appeal of B/S to me? -- Indri, 22:47:52 07/18/02 Thu
I wrote all that and forgot to mention the appeal of athletic, unihibited superhero/supervillian sex. Silly me.
Also, there can be a strong comedy element bcause they both have fine senses of humour.
I could give a list of reasons why I like other 'ships too---and why I often prefer non-shippy fic anyway---but S/B was what you asked about.
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Re: Will SOMEONE explain the Appeal of B/S to me? -- kalima, 07:56:28 07/20/02 Sat
>3) Like most odd ships, it relies on one thing: "Buffy
>admits her feelings for (insert character name here)"
>not a problem with a long enough buildup - IE:
>Tenhawks "Journeys" and its many sequals (It promised
>to be B/X...it's over 5 sequals latter and it's still
>only building up!)>> There are plenty of stories that build up to it, but if you don't like the 'ship then you probably won't/don't read any of the stories. I've argued the same frustration on the subject of slash of any kind which isn't canon or B/X (which I see not happening based on canon) -S/B however is canon in so far as the relationship goes. It's there. It exists in all its messy, ugly glory. Which is why it appeals to me. I din't make up the 'ship after all because I think JM is really dreamy. I think there are many MANY fic writers who don't gloss over the messy, nasty aspects of the relationship and in fact find those things the most interesting to write about.
>
>So far, the best conclusion I've been able to make is
>that it's source (like that of pretty much every ship
>out there) is projection>> Can't be a projection if it actually exists. A writer can twist characterization to fulfil a fantasy, and I suppose, in a way, that's all fanfic is about, (which is why I resisted writing it for so long.
>
>Anyone else have a theory of logical explination?>> Your theory isn't necessarily logical as it implies a bit of projection on your part as well.
I can't stand slash for example because I think its just as ridiculous as Spike knowing how to make Bechamel sauce or being the perfect Dad. And yet there are some mighty fine stories out there that involve slash. I read them. A good story is a good story which is why places like the Better Buffy fanfic list is so great. I can take recomendations for stories I might otherwise have avoided based on my bias. But do I understand slash or the need to pair up any couple who don't seem to ...go together? Hell no.
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Re: Will SOMEONE explain the Appeal of B/S to me? -- Majin Gojira, 09:25:44 07/20/02 Sat
>There are plenty of stories
>that build up to it, but if you don't like the 'ship
>then you probably won't/don't read any of the stories.
> I've argued the same frustration on the subject of
>slash of any kind which isn't canon or B/X (which I
>see not happening based on canon) -S/B however is
>canon in so far as the relationship goes. It's there.
> It exists in all its messy, ugly glory.
Unfortunately, I keep on finding stories that don't show its Messy, Ugly Glory!
Where are such fics! Tell me!
>Which is why
>it appeals to me.
Ditto, people want it, but it's all ugly and painful! It's masochistic! :D
>I din't make up the 'ship after all
>because I think JM is really dreamy. I think there
>are many MANY fic writers who don't gloss over the
>messy, nasty aspects of the relationship and in fact
>find those things the most interesting to write about.
Please! Guide me to them! I want to see B/S in it's evil glory!
>>
>>So far, the best conclusion I've been able to make is
>>that it's source (like that of pretty much every ship
>>out there) is projection>>
>Can't be a projection if
>it actually exists.
I'm just posing a reason as to why people like it so much, it's only a theory.
>A writer can twist
>characterization to fulfil a fantasy, and I suppose,
>in a way, that's all fanfic is about, (which is why I
>resisted writing it for so long.
>across clever, smart, funny, brilliant writers who
>swept me up into the magic that is Buffy and Spike
>bumping uglies - in every sense of the phrase. His
>love for her which is obsessive but real in a
>Heathcliff-might-return-to-exact-revenge kind of way.
Which is why the love cannot last. She realized this and ended the relationship.
>Her love for him which must overcome tremendous social
>and psychological conflicts.
God, a minute ago I had a really good comment for this...but...I lost it. Shit.
>It's freaking classic,
>for God's sake!
Like Beauty and the Beast, or...Anne Daryl and King Kong.
I think the King Kong Comparison works better.
>
>>
>>Anyone else have a theory of logical explination?>>
>Your theory isn't necessarily logical as it implies a
>bit of projection on your part as well.
Caught me! Nice one! :D
>
>I can't stand slash for example because I think its
>just as ridiculous as Spike knowing how to make
>Bechamel sauce or being the perfect Dad.
Yes, I agree, It's just that I keep on seeing those in fics.
>And yet
>there are some mighty fine stories out there that
>involve slash. I read them. A good story is a good
>story which is why places like the Better Buffy fanfic
>list is so great. I can take recomendations for
>stories I might otherwise have avoided based on my
>bias. But do I understand slash or the need to pair
>up any couple who don't seem to ...go together? Hell
>no.
So, in ending...HELP ME FIND FICS OF B/S WHERE IT'S SHOWN AS YOU DESCRIBE IT! Prettymuch UNHEALTHY!
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Re: Will SOMEONE explain the Appeal of B/S to me? -- Kelso, 16:30:59 07/20/02 Sat
>So, in ending...HELP ME FIND FICS OF B/S WHERE IT'S SHOWN >AS YOU DESCRIBE IT! Prettymuch UNHEALTHY!
Well, I have some possibilities for you. There's a site called Dead shell that bills itself as "a place for those of us that realize that the Spike/Buffy relationship isn't normal, isn't good, and certainly isn't healthy." This site does not sound like my thing at all so I haven't read any of the stories there, but it might be just what you're looking for. http://ficbitch.com/deadshell/
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Re: Will SOMEONE explain the Appeal of B/S to me? -- Coquette, 19:15:13 07/21/02 Sun
Kalima wrote:
>I can't stand slash for example because I think its
>just as ridiculous as Spike knowing how to make
>Bechamel sauce or being the perfect Dad. And yet
>there are some mighty fine stories out there that
>involve slash. I read them. A good story is a good
>story which is why places like the Better Buffy fanfic
>list is so great. I can take recomendations for
>stories I might otherwise have avoided based on my
>bias. But do I understand slash or the need to pair
>up any couple who don't seem to ...go together? Hell
>no.
It's all about the subtext, babe. (Hee.)
No, actually, I hear you on this. And I write slash. Well, when I'm not getting bogged down in plot, I write slash. Of Ye Good Olde Fanged Four variety, with our boy Will getting hammered into the mattress by Bad Dad Angelus, and I have to say I am of many minds about it.
I know what you're saying about the faintly (or frankly) ridiculous aspect of any non-canon relationships, and slash is probably at the top of the ridico-list, from a sane and sober point of view. There are certainly moments when the oddness of what I'm doing strikes me, and I start to giggle. But you're also right--there are writers who can make me believe the unbelievable, like S/X. (*cough*Te*cough*) Or, if not believe it, at least happily indulge it for a span of time. And certainly it does come down to what floats your boat; slash floats mine, so I am perhaps more patient with it than less perverted souls might be.
There's also the fact that the subtext (god bless it) isn't all in our heads; the writers know full well what they do. It's here, there, and everywhere; BtVS and Angel are mighty gay shows at times. And if they're going to flirt delicately around the edges with pink motorcycle helmets and hound dog gazes and throwing-each-other-up-against-the-wall, I say damn the torpedoes.
Wait--this was a thread about Spuffy, right? I don't know, Majin Gojira. I don't get it either.
Coquette, pervert
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Re: Will SOMEONE explain the Appeal of B/S to me? -- kc, 02:11:31 07/19/02 Fri
>I'm looking for a logical explanation for the amount
>of not only B/S fic, but B/S shippers. I'm not a fan
>of it. infact, you could say I loath it.
>
>There are so many bad-things about the B/S
>relationship, and authors continually gloss over
>them...
>
>So anyway, can someone explain why people like this
>relationship? And please, let it be a logical answer
>(IE: No "But they're so cute together" or "JM is a
>Hottie!" type of answers).
>
>Anyone? Hello?
Well, it makes a hell of a lot more sense to me than B/A, let me tell you that. But on the subject of B/S, I'll admit that the prospect is seemingly far-fetched and bizarre.
However, you just can't beat a good story. I think that what draws so many writers to the pairing is the complexity of it- how it isn't a cut-and-dried situation like the whole 'star-crossed lovers' shebang but rather something so fraught with ambiguity as to lend itself to many different interpretations. The whole affair is so riddled with contradictions and paradoxes that working it out can be as fascinating or as trying as a moebeus (sp?) loop.
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