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Date Posted: 16:57:35 04/22/01 Sun
Author: Steve A.
Subject: But where does that leave one?
In reply to: OPB 's message, "Re: Question concerning the "Might Makes Right" ethic." on 15:11:08 04/22/01 Sun

The church progarm i'm attending is aimed at the 21 - 31 age bracket. The leader of the program, the lead singer in his Christian Rock Band is a philosphy student at the local community/liberal arts college. I suspect that he's kind of using it as a forum to somehow demonstrate that his religion is the only rational choice, contrasted with insanity of Hell. They've set up a "burning question" where audience members drop of their "questions and challenges" and then the M.C. of the program answers them on-stage the next week.

As i suspected, its the perfect set-up for this church to set up philosphical straw men, The answer to one of the more sophisticated questions was rife with a prioris i doubt the questioner would have allowed, and many of the analogies between scientific knowledge and knowledge of the "supernatural" seemed tenuous at best.

I suggested open debate...the Philosphy students reply; "No"

I wasn't the one who submitted the question (the question was basically; why should one accept the bible as authoritative) , and part of the M.C.'s justification had to do with the nature of knowledge itself. Apparently, one can't deny that they don't hear the voice of God talking to them, unless one lets them deny the fact that its really me (my name) talking to them when i talk to them in the flesh.

The best stuff i could come up with to that was a weight of evidence argument: ie, there is better and more evidence, and more easily verifiable evidence that it is me in the room speaking to one of them, than they could ever muster to demonstrate some supernatural being was talking to them tellin them "no, don't take that particular job offer"

I suppose i should give some background: the lesson was on false spirituality as opposed to true spirituality ( a relationship with jay-sus) Apparently i'm not allowed to make certain observations about the physical world with any more certainty than they make observations about the spiritual world.

But to me, there seems that knowledge of the physical world
would have to be more reliable, because we have more ways of apporaching physical assertations with anylytical and critical methods outside of experience-based "knowledge"

I mean, how can i claim that i exist?

All this reeks of metaphysical bullshit. which is why i want to be an attorney, and not a philosopher or theologian (please don't take that personally OPB, you are a great, and most intelligent helP)

I've just gotten shit sick of their metaphysical machinations. I've become Randian in a sense; either produce, and trade tangible value for tangible value, or shut the hell up and get out of the way of my future Porsche.

Oh well, i need to return to absorbing the Dormant Commerce Clause material, i'll save my delusions of greatness and wealth for another day.

As per the might makes right position:

He (the christian i was questioning) added as an addendum, that his words "for example, i get to make the rules b/c i can beat you down if i wanted to" And since god is always going to be able to beat you (my name) down, He gets to make the rules. I suggested that he come down off the table and test the theological hypothetical that i had a .25 Auto with a concealed carry permit underneath my pants cuff since he could "beat me down"

Then he qualified it with "but oh, God wants to be my friend and shit, like a father figure, just like he wanted to be my friend.

I suggested that i didn't know many parents that would have their children incinerated for eternity no matter how gravely a temporal injury that child had caused the person. His reply "well, God is just so much bigger, so the consequences of our actions merit bigger consequences" I didn't know what to say to that one, it didn't seem to have a lot of substance.

I try to keep the issue narrow: How can i have free will if i didn't have a choice to enter this temporal arena with only two way out (heaven or hell) as opposed his assertation that i was a a slave whatever i did, because of course once i make one choice, that precludes me from doing anything else excluded by chosing that choice. Then he redefined what "slavery" meant. I thought it meant abrogation of the exercise of an individual's will.

Ultimately he came to the position that he didn't accept "free will" but rather "limited will" but that that exercise of "limited will" was still enough to justify eternal holocaust.

He then claim that love was "doing the best for the another irregardless of the consequences to oneself" i fail to see how these positions can be squared; ie, how can my eternal pain be somehow in "my best interests"

Am i completely ignorant of my own interests? Thus i can't say if being incinerated for eternity is in my own best interests or not, i merely have to accept that it is?

I shouldn't be doing this. I have my first final on the 3rd.
Thanks for your input SM78, OPB. If i ever find myself out towards LA, would you show me around? I don't have any "real world" friend in that area, and i'm really tempted to do something off the wall this summer, like fly out to L.A. just to see the west Coast. If i do, i could use somebody to introduce me to the local life.

Anywhoo...thanks for the input as always.

Steve A.

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