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Date Posted: 15:48:21 03/07/03 Fri
Author: PJzallday
Author Host/IP: px1so.cg.shawcable.net / 24.71.223.140
Subject: Is it too early to start discussion? (RE: "Love is Blind" by Avalon)
I'll be away for the next several days --- and don't know whether I'll have computer access, so I wanted to post some thoughts.
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Generally speaking, the story was well written and did hold within what I believe to be the canon of the Buffyverse. Dialogue was plausible for the characters (more so in the later parts of the story than in the beginning). There was good flow, a logical progression of events, and descriptors were effective.
I appreciated that Spike was reluctant to help Buffy in the beginning. He stood back until he realized she was in real peril --- which given the time-frame of the story seemed to me to be on point. I also thought not plunging forward too quickly with the sex was believable. (Hmm... maybe plunging isn't a good choice of words.)
The notion of Buffy having to deal with blindness was an interesting and unique one. The way in which the author told that part of the story was within character for Buffy (I think). Her wanting to go out fighting and wanting to take the demon down first in spite of her condition shows a strength of character that I think Buffy possessed (and possesses).
I have mixed feelings about the strong tie to the existing AtS episode ("The Trial" 2x09). Spike undergoing some kind of challenge(s) to help Buffy was OK. I thought it was almost humorous the way the Valet spoke about the previous supplicant. The main trouble I had is that the challenges were the same as the ones which Angel endured. (Needless to say, if I'd not seen the episode, this wouldn't be an issue.)
There were some minor grammatical errors but nothing significant. (I doubt these would detract from most people's enjoyment of the story.)
The only other thing is that I think the story is incorrectly rated. I'd say it's more "R" than "NC-17". The sex (and sexuality) and violence is not particularly graphic --- and maybe it's just me but I expect a little more from NC-17 stories. (*nudge nudge wink wink*)
I'm hesitant to give it a number rating at the moment, but would place "Love is Blind" by Avalon in the Average to Very Good categories.
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My thoughts... -- Robin, 00:03:10 03/11/03 Tue (h24-70-225-237.hn.shawcable.net/24.70.225.237)
Before I say anything, let it be known that I'm not a Spuffy fan. At all. Just for the record.
That said, I didn't mind the story. It was well written, well thought out, and well planned.
The characters were believable, and the story flowed nicely.
I only have a couple of gripes. First of all, for such a long story, that Willow, Tara, Anya and Xander didn't even make a cameo kinda irked me. Tara and Anya definitely weren't mentioned, and I don't think Xander was, either.
Second of all, the empty pool that led to the Trial area...wasn't in Sunnydale. I don't think Spike and Buffy could have walked to and from it.
Other than that, the story was pretty good. It's not going on my Bookmark list, but I didn't hate it.
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Review of "Love is Blind" -- Bri, 00:54:47 03/11/03 Tue (cpe-66-1-253-227.co.sprintbbd.net/66.1.253.227)
I'm one of those people who can really really like a 'ship on the show, and hate it in fic. Spuffy is one of them. I used to try and read Spuffy fic, but I don't think I came across more than one or two that actually made sense to me.
This one is one of those fics.
My biggest problem with most Spuffy fics is that they emasculate Spike or turn Buffy into this simpering twit who jumps into "Spiky Bear's" arms. Avalon did an *excellent* job, IMO, of keeping both of them completely in character. Spike's hesitation and indecision, his evil side wanting to see her destruction warring with the side that wanted to save her, that was very believable. And Buffy's resistance to the growing attraction, and her assertion at the end of the fic that she didn't want to *be* with him like that, it was very true to the show. Even the bits with Giles and Joyce and Dawn were consistant with the way they're portrayed in canon.
So, characterization gets an A+ in my book.
I also *loved* the English Trial guy. He was perfect for comic relief. There were a couple moments where I was giggling like a crazy person, particularly the sugar exchange: "Sugar?" "Why?" "To sweeten the tea." I think the dashes of humor adequately counterbalanced the dark, grim tones of the blindness and its consequences.
I only had a couple complaints about this fic, and they were minor. First off, as PJzallday said, the fact that the Trials were the same as Angel's. Granted, they're probably not used to vampires becoming Champions, so they wouldn't have any reason to come up with any variations on the "vampire challenges," but there could have been an effort made for some originality there.
Secondly, the fact that Buffy was being the martyr and going out and getting herself killed to bring forth a new Slayer. She's not that self-sacrificing. In fact, I've always thought that pretty much up until the current season, she's been remarkably selfish. It's a coward's way out, and it only took her a week to decide she had to die. As many Apocalypses as Buffy's beaten, you'd think she'd know by now that at the eleventh hour, a way always makes itself known. She just had to be patient.
Those two things were small, though, and just personal stylistic issues. Compared with the story's overall flow, the vivid imagery and spot-on dialogue/characterization, they mean virtually nothing. Avalon deserves a high mark for this, so I'll give it a 93/100.
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Re: Is it too early to start discussion? (RE: "Love is Blind" by Avalon) -- Chani, 12:35:08 03/11/03 Tue (curie.noos.net/212.198.0.93)
I liked this fic! I liked the way it was written. Dialogues are very well done. I loved the Valet! The style is really enjoyable.
Besides, I think that the characterization is successful, mostly about Spike.
As for Buffy, I don't completely buy the way she changes her mind about Spike. She seems to realize that he is attractive and that she wants him because of the situation. I think it's more complicated. I agree that the situation, her blindness and his help after the fight against the demon, allows her to express her desire and "to see" him as a man, but it sounds a little too sudden.
I would have liked that the story mentioned more background, the heat which existed before they showed any feelings for each other and maybe the passion between them in Something Blue when they were blinded by a spell!
I also agree with PJ about the rating...
The "bulky" Riley is dispatched without real explanations which is rather unlikely given his love for Buffy at the time...
The trial stuff bothers me a little, because it is sheer brought, and I agree with Robin concerning the geographical incoherence (Hey I am a history and geography teacher!)...
However, Avalon did a great job here, so I'll give this story a 88/100
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Re: Is it too early to start discussion? (RE: "Love is Blind" by Avalon) -- SaraKat, 18:22:34 03/11/03 Tue (lsanca1-ar4-254-042.biz.dsl.gtei.net/4.33.254.42)
Okay, because I'm not a Spuffy fan, but wanted to be able to rate this fairly, I actually went a printed out the "Critical Questions When Reviewing Fan Fiction". LOL
I'm going to go in order here.
1. Is the piece built on recognizable elements within the Buffyverse? Does the premise of the work itself stray too far from the Buffyverse canon?
Okay, this is really the only area where I really had some problems. From the author's notes, this fic is supposed to be taking place between "Shadow" and "Listening To Fear". During this time, Buffy's not even considering Spike in any way, shape or form. He's a nuisance to her. She's still in love with Riley. The casual, to me at least, dismissal of this relationship didn't hold true to me...at least from Buffy. That is something I don't believe she would have done at that time.
2. Does the writer have a strong knowledge of his or her characters in the fiction?
As others have said, the Spike portrayed in this fic is excellent. I had a few problems with Buffy, mentioned above, but overall the characterization was great.
3. Is the story original or does it go over well-trodden ground?
Other than using the "trials", I felt this was a fairly original fic. Having Buffy be so helpless from the loss of her vision was a great plot idea.
4. Is the action in the story realistic or can one buy what the writer is selling? Has the writer explained enough of the back-story leading up to the central action?
I found the action for the "trials" a little disappointing, mostly because it was used straight from an Angel ep. However, the rest was described in a manner that made it easy to see in your mind.
5. Has the writer taken efforts to respect the genre that is being written about? For example, are the blatant spelling or grammatical errors?
There are a few spelling or grammar mistakes, which can be a nuisance, but overall the writer did a good job.
6. Is there a plot that follows logically? Is the story seamless in its movement forward or does it clunk along like a wagon with a bad wheel?
Overall, the story moved along nicely. There were a few parts that seemed to stagnate, but nothing to where it greatly detracted from the story.
7. If the fanfic confusing due to it's narration?
Not at all.
8. Can the fanfic be recommended?
Yes, although I would only recommend to Spuffy fans.
Overall, I would give this story a 90, which is very high for me to give a Spuffy fic. But I really did find myself enjoying this fic, so congrats to the author! :-)
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Re: Is it too early to start discussion? (RE: "Love is Blind" by Avalon) -- Kelso, 16:06:48 03/11/03 Tue (c66.190.39.48.fdl.wi.charter.com/66.190.39.48)
B/S is one of my favorite pairings, and "Love is Blind" is a really good example of it. Not great, but very good.
The prologue was an excellent attention-grabber. Points for that. The story kept my attention throughout, although in a couple places well into it I did find myself getting a little impatient with the pace. I liked the characterization very much (particularly Spike's), and the dialogue was convincing. Buffy didn't immediately accept that Spike had changed--good again. And the Buffy/Giles scene was a nice touch. The Riley issue was at least mentioned a few times, in a non-bashing way, instead of being ignored. Finally, the ending worked for me.
What didn't I like?
-The niggling grammar/punctuation errors. I found an average of 1-2 errors per page, and the story was 74 printed pages. (Almost always little things like the omitted comma in the phrase "It wasn't from fear[MISSING COMMA] though.") Those mistakes, while relatively minor, really added up, and I have to make a deduction for them.
-The geography conflict others have mentioned.
-Buffy's blindness was a relatively fresh idea; Spike undergoing the same trials as Angel was not.
-In the second half, the story dragged a bit in a few places.
As for a number rating, I didn't quite want to put this story in the "excellent" category so I have to give it an 89.
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Minor change -- Kelso, 19:44:11 03/11/03 Tue (c66.190.39.48.fdl.wi.charter.com/66.190.39.48)
I was looking at the story one more time for something else, and I ran across an explanation of the trial's location. It moves around and finds those who are looking for it. Since I noted the geography as a flaw before and it actually isn't, I'm upping my rating of this story just a bit, to a 90.
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I am a fervent Spuffist and I gave the lower mark! -- Chani, 09:30:23 03/12/03 Wed (curie.noos.net/212.198.0.93)
Ok I often give lower marks here, but I think you are very generous guys!
Should I up my rating?
The borrowing of the Trial was a disappointement indeed, but the Valet was hilarious.
I am still not convinced by the Trials location, Kelso...I wouldn't argue about the grammar/spelling/punctuation mistakes because I am badly placed to say anything, but I enjoyed Avalon's writing.
I have read this fic months ago, and I reread it lately before rating. I still liked it, but I still thought it wasn't an exceptional fiction.
88/100 is a very good mark for a very good story, but I don't think "Love is Blind" deserves more, sorry....
PS: My students think I am severe in grading...Are they right?
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Oops it was "lowest" of course! -- Chani**french mistakes bag**, 09:33:03 03/12/03 Wed (curie.noos.net/212.198.0.93)
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I think you were rather generous too, Chani! -- PJzallday, 14:46:01 03/12/03 Wed (px1so.cg.shawcable.net/24.71.223.140)
I'm pretty hard pressed to give it more than a low "Very Good", but lean more toward a high "Average".
I thought the style was good, characterization was better than average (considering the time frame), but the Trial thing... well, that for me is enough of a sticking point to withhold marks.
78/100
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Love is Blind... -- Jade, 14:21:34 03/12/03 Wed (cache3-nrth.server.ntli.net/62.253.32.6)
Well, it held my attention to a certain point, until she got her sight back, then I must say I got bored at the pace and couldn't find the commitment to finish it. I liked the way she didn’t bash other ships.
I thought that as someone said, the timeline was wrong. She thought nothing of Spike at this point and still thought she was in love with Riley.
As it lost my interest I can’t give it a high mark so I give it a 70/100 which is still very good.
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I agree with you Jade. -- PJzallday, 14:55:57 03/12/03 Wed (px1so.cg.shawcable.net/24.71.223.140)
I found in places the pace dragged --- largely as you've suggested after Buffy's sight returned.
Truth be told, a significant part of what kept me going was the "NC-17" rating --- I really was hoping there'd be some graphic sex... *sigh* (When are we reading the Slash group's choice???)
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Nooo... -- Jade, 18:45:57 03/12/03 Wed (cache3-nrth.server.ntli.net/62.253.32.6)
The slash is R. Do you people have no standards? :oP
B/A is PG-13
I'm not sure about the others. Lets hope we get *some* graphic NC-17, hmm!?
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Unfortunately... -- Bri, 19:18:00 03/12/03 Wed (NoHost/65.121.54.114)
... it looks like there's pretty much no NC-17 fic at all this session. Through Different Eyes (B/X) is PG, Rebel, Rebel is R but not because of sex, and I think the nonship fic pretty much negates any possible chances of sex. LOL
Does anyone know if the crossover is smut-alicious?
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For the record, we chose a non-NC17 slash piece... -- Robin, 03:29:27 03/13/03 Thu (h24-70-225-237.hn.shawcable.net/24.70.225.237)
partly BECAUSE it was non-NC17. See, there are some people in the group who wouldn't want to read NC17 Slash. *sigh* I don't know what's wrong with them either. ;)
Hee!
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There's such a thing as Non-NC-17 Slash??? -- PJzallday *baffled*, 13:27:22 03/13/03 Thu (px1so.cg.shawcable.net/24.71.223.140)
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Just to clarify... -- PJzallday, 13:42:43 03/13/03 Thu (px1so.cg.shawcable.net/24.71.223.140)
I've got no problem reading any kind of fic, but when I see NC-17 as a rating I expect a certain level of adult content.
A PG-13 B/A story sounds fine. But who ever heard of Slash that's R??? How on earth did they even find such a thing?
Curious....
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Hell, I wrote a G slash piece once. -- Robin, 14:57:23 03/13/03 Thu (h24-70-225-237.hn.shawcable.net/24.70.225.237)
And a couple of PG ones.
The NC-17 ones are about sex. The others are about developing the relationship between the characters. If there can be PG het fics, there can be PG slash fics.
Most slash authors write slash because they like the ship, not because they want to see the hotties get it on.
Although that's not a problem either. Slash readers like character and relationship development just as much as the next reader. We just also enjoy homoerotica. *grin*
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Never thought about it that way. -- PJzallday, 17:02:05 03/13/03 Thu (px1so.cg.shawcable.net/24.71.223.140)
I don't look at a relationship requiring a censor rating until the "hotties get it on" (love that phrase by the way, Robin), so I hadn't considered the need to refer to a homosexual relationship (without the sex) as being Slash. To me it's just a relationship (though I've seen "pre-Slash" used as a descriptor in those situations).
And yes, character development is important regardless of the rating. (I really want to comment on the homoerotica too but... *veg* I'll just leave that.)
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Re: Never thought about it that way. -- Bri, 18:58:24 03/13/03 Thu (NoHost/65.121.54.251)
I usually think of slash as just homosexual smut, too. But then again, stories with even just a slight tone of m/m or f/f feelings are classified as slash, and there's not so much as a kiss. It all just depends on how you look at it.
If you're really in the mood to read some NC-17 fic you probably haven't read before, I *do* have a couple on my site. Assuming that you don't mind my writing, just the way I came across in the one fic, I wouldn't mind sending you some.
http://www.geocities.com/mlhockeygrrl.html
There's only one slash fic, which is NC-17, and it's Spike/Xander. Only one I've ever written, based off of a challenge.
Most of my NC-17 fic is Faith/?, and isn't loaded onto the site. If you're interested, give me a holler. :)
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Re: Is it too early to start discussion? (RE: "Love is Blind" by Avalon) -- Leatrix, 14:55:10 03/12/03 Wed (AKCF1-GGI.xtra.co.nz/203.96.111.237)
Hi
My thoughts pretty much reflect what has been said already. There's good characterizaton, and little bashing of other ships or characters. Its pretty well written for fanfic - even if there are the odd grammar mistakes or typos.
Yes the trial borrows heavily from Angel, but most fanfics do borrow ideas heavily from other sources, so to me this is not a big sin.
My score for this is 90.
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Love is Blind review -- Molloch, 20:51:51 03/12/03 Wed (NoHost/203.55.173.3)
Overall I really liked this story. I liked the idea of Buffy being blind and flawed in some way. I think this left the piece open to some changes in canon. Because she was blind and this hasn't happened in the show it gave Avalon the chance to change it round. Like Buffy being interested in Spike. Also while I thought Buffy giving up her life seemed a bit out of character, I then thought how would we know how she really would react. That's a big thing to happen to anyone and therefore I was able to suspend belief for that as it was unexplored territory.
It has recognisable elements from Buffy. I actually liked the trial because it was familiar. I was able to visualize what Spike went through more easily as I had seen it before. I liked the reference to Angel. It was like throwing something in that we would smile at. If you didn't watch Angel you would not get the reference.
I loved the dialogue and loved the Valet. I read it eagerly and couldn't wait to get to the next page.
My rating is 93.
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Re: Is it too early to start discussion? (RE: "Love is Blind" by Avalon) -- Spike's cutie, 05:11:24 03/15/03 Sat (netcache-2002.public.lawson.webtv.net/209.240.198.61)
This made the characters quite believable imo. It was, to me, a very good story. Actually, on of my faves.
The Buffy being blind plot was new & refreshing. I think that being a slayer and not being able to do anything to help those who need your help is depressing. One would think that it would, in fact, bring on a death wish quicker. Buffy would never want everyone doing every thing for her & that could lead to suicidal tendancies. Also, that she would go out fighting.
Spike was being very much like he was in season 5. Pretending to not care, but in the end, helping her as always.
I didn't have the problem some had with the trials. I've only seen 2 episodes of Angel, so it was new to me. That valet was funny.
This story kept me going til the end. I give it a 94/100.
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