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Subject: Book of Job- Theodicy Author: Robert Sutherland [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] Date Posted: 09:47:23 05/23/04 Sun In my newly published book "Putting God on Trial- The Biblical Book of Job" (http://www.bookofjob.org), I assert the Book of Job presents a Hegelian theodicy. Undeserved evil (in the life of Job and by implication all mankind) is morally necessary for the production of a particular type of faith or love: a completely selfless love of man for God. To say God is causally responsible for evil (the agency relationship between God and Satan) is not to say God is morally blameworthy for such evil. He is only blameworthy if his reason for sending undeserved evil (into the life of Job and by implication all mankind) is not necessary and sufficient. In Job's Oath of Innocence, his vindication is a finding of causal responsiblity. He is innocent of anything deserved the evil that has befallen him and his family. God is the author of that evil. The condemnation is a finding of moral blameworthiness. Job never takes that second step separate from the Oath to condemn God. In Job's second speech to God, Job changes course. That is the significance of the Hebrew "naham", improperly translated "repent". "Naham" normally means to change course or to be comforted. "Shub" is the Hebrew word for a confession of moral wrongdoing. Job had considered condemning God, but after hearing God's second speech, Job found suggestions of the existence of a defense by God and granted God an adjournment to the Day of the Final Judgment. God could complete his use of evil in the world and give a full and final exposition of the reason for it then. The message of the Book of Job is that man has a right to know the reason for evil in the world. God has a duty to give it, but that duty is nuanced so that God does not have to give it here and now. [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

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[> Subject: Re: Book of Job- Theodicy Author: Iwillgonow [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 19:42:00 05/28/04 Fri The primary flaw with your way of thinking is that "undeserved evil...is morally necessary for the production of a particular type of faith or love: a completely selfless love of man for God." Where was evil for all eternity before mankind fell? Did not the angels in Heaven love God with a perfect love before sin came into Lucifer? Evil is not required for love. No kind of evil is required for any type of love. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Re: Book of Job- Theodicy Author: Robert Sutherland [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 07:59:54 05/29/04 Sat Then what do you make of Satan's challenge to God (Job 1:9-11) and God's acceptance of the challenge. (Job 1:12) Your interpretation seems to suggest God had absolutely no reason whatsoever for authorizing the evil that befell Job. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> Subject: Re: Book of Job- Theodicy Author: Iwillgonow [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:55:53 05/29/04 Sat God has absolute authority in the universe, and is worthy to judge all things, and to execute His judgement upon all things. God is the one who created what is right and decided what is wrong, and He alone is worthy to reward the just, and punish the wicked. There is no questioning what God is able and justified to do. He tries us that we may become like gold tried in a fire, with the dross burned away and consumed by the fire. Isaiah 45:7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things]. Without reason? Without purpose? Of course not. Job 2:3: And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause. God tested Job by allowing Satan to attack him without cause, seeing Job was a righteous man in all his ways, and still Job held fast his integrity to the Lord. This is a lesson to all of us, that even if we are perfect in our walk with the Lord, we must trust Him and love Him, whatever He may allow us to experience, because He does all things for a cause, for a reason, many times beyond our finite minds to understand. Job 9:22: This [is] one [thing], therefore I said [it], He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked. And is God a sinner for doing so? Nay, mortal man, God's will be done in all the earth, for "all things worketh together for good to those whom love Him, and keepeth His commandments." The next time you question God's intentions, or authority, remember, you man of the dust, that God is beyond your comprehension, as His ways are above your ways. Learn as Job also learned: Job:37:16: Dost thou know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him which is perfect in knowledge? Can you judge the Almighty? Do you know all there is to know, that you may judge the God of the Universe correctly? Remember, Jesus suffered all things without cause by the will of God, that we may have a chance to be in Heaven. Was that wrong? Think about it... [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Book of Job- Theodicy Author: Robert Sutherland [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 16:10:02 05/29/04 Sat Did God send evil into Job's life? If so, then was it undeserved? If not, then how would you explain God's comments (Job 2:3), Job's comments (Job 2:10) and the narrator's comments (Job 42:11)? [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> Subject: Re: Book of Job- Theodicy Author: Iwillgonow [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 16:36:10 05/29/04 Sat God sent undeserved evil into Job's life. Also into Jesus' life. Also into many other righteous people's lives. Why? For what purpose? Who are you to judge God? Can you know His purposes, or fathom His ways? God allowed Satan to destroy Job's life to prove to Satan that Job loved Him out of love, not out of property or safety or prosperity. God allowed His Son to be destroyed, undeservedly, because it was what was necessary to redeem mankind. This is not the point. We will not always know the reason behind what God does, and THAT is the lesson of Job: trust God even when you don't understand WHY He is allowing or doing what He is doing, because GOD IS HOLY, HOLY, HOLY, and there is no unrighteousness in Him, neither is there shadow of turning. Only those who do not believe God is just will question God's authority to do as He sees fit. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> Subject: Re: Book of Job- Theodicy Author: Robert Sutherland [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 18:01:50 05/29/04 Sat The meaning of the Book of Job is that: 1. man has a right to know the reason behind evil in the world, 2. God has a duty to give that answer, 3. that duty is nuanced such that God does not have to give it here and now, but must give it no later than the Day of the Final Judgment, 4. in the meantime, human beings should not prematurely God for creating some evil in the world, but should wait for the answers that will be forthcoming. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

[> [> [> [> Subject: Re: Book of Job- Theodicy Author: Iwillgonow [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 22:07:50 06/04/04 Fri God isn't responsible for sin, for its existance, or for the reason it came into existance, because in order for God to be responsible for sin, He must be held accountable for sin, and it is clearly, plainly stated in the Bible that sin is in no way, shape or form a part of God, or caused because of God, for in Him there is no sin, or creation of sin, period. To give a reason for sin is to excuse it's existance. There is no reason for sin. There is no reason to disobey God. That's why it is wrong. There is no justification for transgressing the law of God. None. Ever. Whatsoever. Sin has no purpose, no cause, no reason. That's why it is sin, that's why it's wrong, and that is why sin will be utterly annihilated from all the universe forevermore, amen. Here's another way of putting it: The angels had been created full of goodness and love. They loved one another impartially and their God supremely, and they were prompted by this love to do His pleasure. The law of God was not a grievous yoke to them, but it was their delight to do His commandments, to hearken unto the voice of His Word. But in this state of peace and purity, sin originated with him who had been perfect in all his ways. The prophet writes of him: "Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty; thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness." Sin is a mysterious, unexplainable thing. There was no reason for its existence; to seek to explain it is to seek to give a reason for it, and that would be to justify it. Sin appeared in a perfect universe, a thing that was shown to be inexcusable. God had a knowledge of the events of the future, even before the creation of the world. He did not make His purposes to fit circumstances, but He allowed matters to develop and work out. He did not work to bring about a certain condition of things, but He knew that such a condition would exist. The plan that should be carried out upon the defection of any of the high intelligences of heaven--this is the secret, the mystery which has been hid from ages. And an offering was prepared in the eternal purposes to do the very work which God has done for fallen humanity. [ Post a Reply to This Message ]

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