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Subject: Mark,

Author:
Joanne

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Date Posted: 16:16:31 10/07/01 Sun
In reply to: Mark7 's message, "Sure is wrong" on 21:20:32 10/05/01 Fri

Mark, thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts on this board. My prior knowledge of all these events was very sketchy. I'm playing catch-up now, trying to figure things out. Reading your exchanges with JeffF and all the different viewpoints on DP and elsewhere, is an awesome opportunity to learn about world events, from so many different perspectives.

I understand that you feel empathy for the Palestines and others with no country, because you were a refugee. You should let down your guard more often, and let your human side show through. That explains a lot about why you feel as strongly as you do not just about Arabs, but the US involvement in places and ways which are perhaps not honourable and do not reflect what American values stand for. However, America has done so much good in the world too, they are not just power-hungry evil monsters like some would like to have everyone believe.

And do you notice the change in tone on DP regarding the reasons why America was attacked? People ARE starting to think things through, and not just go with the knee-jerk reaction of 'they hate our freedoms.' You can see it for yourself. Your views are perhaps not so different from even the 'hawks' on the board.

And I know that people everywhere are not so different than me, which is why it is so hideously frightening when some do things like fly airplanes into buildings on a beautiful peaceful morning, and push their religious beliefs as justification for war - it really illustrates the differences between "them" and "us", and that is scary to me. To me, it seems like not only are they angry about troops in Saudi and the whole thing about Isreal, but that they are using their collective anger to martyr themselves and achieve eternal paradise - they are exploiting Islam and Muslims, and definitely bastardizing their religion. Bin Laden himself has never wanted for anything - he was born with a silver spoon in his mouth, and I think his agenda is strictly his own, and not so much doing Allah's will, as he says he is doing.

So I guess I'm still troubled the most about Israel and the Palenstines. If the US was to cut support to Israel, I hate to think what would happen. Would they be able to keep their nation? How can America just abandon them? It just doesn't seem right. Do you think that a Palestine state could be created to the satisfaction of all, or do the Palestines definitely want what they had some three or four generations ago. Is there a peaceful solution, so you think?

You liked the sex-change bin Laden idea? It wasn't my idea, I got it in my email, but it would be so just, wouldn't it? I thought it was pretty good too. :-)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Is there a peaceful solution?

Author:
Mark7
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Date Posted: 21:34:02 10/07/01 Sun

I wish I could say yes, but in honesty I do have doubts. I don't think the leadership of either Palestine or Israel has the stamina, the guts, to tell their own people to rid of their own guilt.

I'm not sure about us either. GW Bush has made it plainly clear:

"You are either with us, or against us". There is no place of neutrality. He is talking about a war on terrorism, while in truth the only terrorism he wants to fight is a Muslim fundamentalist terrorism.

First I doubt we can win. Stop your anger for a second and consider this for a moment. If we kill Bin Laden, he will became a martyr, and a rallying point for all radicals. If we don't kill him, we appear weak to our enemies.

In order to find a peaceful solution, you need people in the middle, people without an "allegiance". Only those people can talk with both sides and open communications.

How can you, or any reporter, in today's American media open a story about a Jewish 31 year old settler, who killed a 12 year old Palestinian boy by hitting him in the face repeatedly with the but of his rifle, to be acquited by an Israeli jurry (he got 6 monts probation)?

And how can you expect that his parents, brothers and friends will not seek the punishment, legal or not of this animal who claims to do Yehova's good work and has Israel agreeing with him?

You try it. Raise the issue of human rights on DP and watch how everybody will call you un-American, friend of terrorists and so on.

GW Bush has the stomach to send American troops to fight a war outside the country, a thing he, just like Clinton never had to do. He has the courage to tell the world that "you are either with us, or against us".

But has he the courage to tell Jewish lobbies in the US that Palestinians have the right to a country of their own where they are citizens with full rights? Does GW Bush have the courage to tell Sharon he needs to face international tribunal to clear his role on the massacres of Palestinian women and children in Lebnon?

I doubt it.

I doubt Shamir or Sharon have the guts to tell settlers they need to move out, or accept living under Palestinian rule, and I doubt Arafat has the guts to tell Bush and Sharon that he doesn't have to power and the clout to stop his people from making war, if the peace is unacceptable.

History has taught us that usually genocide follows these type of situations where culture clashes are too great and dialogue is imposible.

Remember "A good Indian is a dead indian". Our settler managed to kill all the bad Indians from America.

My feeling is that in the US of A as well as in Israel's political classes there is forging a desire to rid Palestine of Palestinians by force.

This scenario would have consequences on our country as well. We will lose some of our freedoms, because you cannot commit genocide in plain view of the public.

You need to shut up opposition, strangle freedom of speach and ally yourself with goons.

We are doing all of these.

I hope I am wrong.