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Date Posted: 11:05:19 04/15/03 Tue
Author: Gwydion
Author Host/IP: NoHost / 129.130.179.37
Subject: Re: You poeple say that a lot.
In reply to: Kharn 's message, "Re: You poeple say that a lot." on 09:48:56 04/15/03 Tue

>>It's a totally valid point. Guns are used for defense
>>millions of times per year in America. Since
>>criminals already break the law, it's only going to be
>>the law-abiding citizens that disarm.
>
>You keep saying that, but sadly that doesn't change
>the fact that America has a mind-boggling amount of
>gun deaths each year. I don't think one weighs out the
>other, you named a number of gun defences saving lives
>each year. That's stupid, there's no way of knowing
>what would have happened if there was no gun for the
>person to defend himself with, there's no guarantee he
>would have been killed if there was no gun, and, let's
>not forget, there's no way of proving you'd have
>significantly less gun deaths with stricter gun laws,
>so the point is pretty moot.

You're right that we can't say for sure how many lives are saved. We also don't know how many of those gun deaths would still happen. After all, that includes police action, intentional homicides and suicides, all of which could easily still happen with a disarmed general population. So what do we know? We know that millions of Americans use guns for defense every year. We know that the number that defend themselves with guns is far larger than the number that die from guns, by about 71,428 times. That's not moot.

>>Have you ever heard of the Carr brothers? I don't
>>expect you have, but they were a real big story here
>>in Wichita. However, in late 2000 -- December I think
>>-- they forced five people, 3 women and 2 men, to take
>>them from ATM machine to ATM machine and withdraw
>>their money. After that, the brothers raped the three
>>women. Finally, they were all taken out to a remote
>>field and shot execution style. One woman did manage
>>to survive, and in fact she ran naked through the snow
>>for miles to get help.
>>
>>What's my point? These four people were dead as soon
>>as the Carrs had marked them. You can't trust
>>dirtbags to do the right thing, Kharn.
>
>Obviously not, but amazingly, this has absolutely
>nothing to do with gun laws. I'm talking about
>burglars, you're talking about street robbers.

In America, only 13% of burglaries are hot burglaries. I don't know what the number's like in Holland, but it's about 53% in Britain.

>I'm
>asuming there aren't many law-abiding citizens that go
>out carrying guns, now are there?

More than half the population live in states which have some form of concealed carry, so yes.

>>Statistically, you're less likely to be injured while
>>resisting with a gun than you are if you just go along
>>with the criminal. Believe it or not, criminals don't
>>want to get shot.
>
>Believe it or not, criminals don't want to shoot
>either.

Right, so if the situation gets dicey they get the fuck out. Is that hard to understand?

>Hypothetical situation: There's a robber in your
>house. He's carrying a gun, but thank God so are you.
>Here are the options:
>
>1. You leave him be, he robs your house and leaves.
>2. You tell him to leave or you'll call the cops.
>3. You point your gun at him and tell him to get the
>fuck out.
>
>Now, you believe 3 is the only way to save yourself,

I believe it's the best way.

>while at the moment you try 2, he'll kill you.

No, now you're just putting words in my mouth. Think about this though: There's a good chance that this guy is a career criminal. He probably already has a record. He doesn't want cops there. If you grab a phone without being armed, is he going to haul balls? Why should he?

>Now if that's true, your country has some serious
>issues. If you tell a burglar over here to leave or
>you'll call the cops, he isn't going to shoot you.
>He's going to leave. OF COURSE he won't fuckin' shoot
>you, because a) he doesn't have a gun (like the
>average burglar in Holland) and b) even if he did, why
>in God's name would he want to shoot you? It'll only
>make his crime worse. We hunt down killers
>mercilessely, because we don't like death. If he
>leaves without gunning you down, he'll get away clean,
>if he guns you down, he's in big fuckin' trouble.
>
>If you truly believe a burglar would rather kill you
>than get away clean, you either have major paranoia
>problems or America as a whole has some seriously
>fucked up people, i.e. it's filled with burglars that
>wouldn't hesitate to shoot people.
>
>Paranoia does seem to be the American tenet, though. I
>mean, you people actually believe you HAVE TO attack
>other countries just to keep yours save (Afghanistan,
>Iraq), not to mention the incredibly weird way you
>guys handled the Cold War. I kid you not, for the
>average European, you guys are freaky psycho paranoia.
>And for you, we're naive as hell, but guess what,
>we're not the ones with as many gun deaths a year as
>you have. We're not the ones with school shoot-outs.

Right. Why did you waste that much time typing something that was based purely on assumption and speculation? Oh, I know. You have nothing concrete to stand on.

>>Didn't you say you stood their and watched your house
>>get robbed once?
>
>I didn't stand, I was still in bed. 2 o'clock pm, I
>was still pretty much asleep. I'm not one for getting
>up early if I can help it, neither is my father.
>
>Junky, yea, kicked in the backdoor, ran in, took the
>VCR and my cell phone, ran out. Nobody got hurt,
>insurance gave us back most of our lost money.
>
>*shrugs* Pretty happy ending, if you ask me, I'm glad
>as hell I didn't run down waving a gun :D

Try locking the door next time.

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