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Date Posted: 20:32:50 10/01/08 Wed
Author: Lucille
Author Host/IP: 86.85.13.82
Subject: Buffy and Giles' relationship in the comics (season 8) -> possible spoilers.
Before I start talking about the actual subject of this thread, I would like to take a moment to say that wow, I'm surprised that this place still exists. :) I haven't been here for years and found myself wondering whether TBC&S still existed, so I googled it and found that not only does it still exist, people are still hanging around on this board, too! That's wonderful - it's good to see that BtVS is still very much alive here. :)
But well, let's go on-topic now. :) I haven't read any of the season 8 comics that Joss Whedon has written, but I have heard here and there that Buffy and Giles are growing increasingly estranged from each other in the comics. Is that true? And if so, why are they growing apart? Does it have to do with what we have seen in season 7, or could it be something else that has or has not yet been revealed in the comics? I would dearly like to know - thank you very much for your responses. :)
Take care,
Lucille ;)
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Re: Buffy and Giles' relationship in the comics (season 8) -> possible spoilers. -- silveragent, 22:27:32 10/01/08 Wed [1] (63.199.111.93)
I have not read S8 comics, but really how could Giles and Buffy not be estranged?
Giles has no family, and the closest person he had to a daughter chose another (fairly loser in Giles's view) vampire over him. [Giles probably hates/fears/loathes Angel, for Spike he seems to feel contempt. Spike lacks even ambition to be consistently evil, Giles is all ambition and self-sacrifice.]
Giles is getting old, probably facing the prospect of dying alone. Likely brooding over the family he never had with Jenny, and the lack of any female companionship amongst young women who find him irrelevant.
Giles is unique -- a Watcher who did not outlive his charge, but rather became totally irrelevant. With a pointless and lonely existence. While Buffy pursues whatever romance of the moment, very clearly not his daughter.
This conflict however dates back to S4. It was inevitable, sadly.
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Or perhaps that is like a daughter -- RJA, 05:01:02 10/02/08 Thu [1] (81.144.162.98)
Choosing a lover over her father. Not to say that this is what all daughters do, or intentionally, but it is a genuine source of conflict in some relationships. It would be ridiculous, as a grown woman, to say that the person who always comes first is her father figure - that would be dooming her to failed relationships of her own.
It's the classic story of someone who refuses to recognise that their daughter is growing older and gaining independence. Yes, we can understand why he would be wary of her relationships with vampires, but given that Buffy was invariably proven right about their reformed behaviour, it would be time for him to accept that and not use it to create a barrier.
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Re: Or perhaps that is like a daughter -- silveragent, 16:23:33 10/03/08 Fri [1] (63.199.111.93)
I don't see Buffy being right about their reformed behavior. Neither Spike nor Angel ever expressed any moral code, belief in God, giving themselves over to a Supreme being, with explicit rejection of their prior ego-testosterone driven ways to a new code. They merely worshipped themselves all over again. Their own ego as God. Themselves as a cause. [You cannot have redemption without God, that is in fact the whole point. Secular redemption is a contradiction in terms.]
Nothing like say, Robert Duvall's character journey in the "Apostle." Who gives himself over to something greater than his own ego. Neither vampire believes in anything but themselves with renewed vigor.
And Buffy is not Giles daughter. She is Hank Summers daughter. Giles will have no Grandchildren that typically informs the lives of the elderly, and provides continuity from generation to generation. The attempts to construct a "superior" alternative to the Nuclear Family always fail, and end up turning to extended tribe/clan ... as seen in Europe and it's social collapse.
Giles is at odds and ends, knowledgeable, with some money, lots of secret information, doing flat out nothing that interests him, engages him, gives his life purpose. He's as likely to be as bored and desperate as the lead in "Office Space" only with more danger. There is nothing in Buffy's distant life for him ... and he's likely to find his own path, purpose, and meanings in life.
Prior watchers whose charges died were pensioned off. Probably too filled with grief to do anything. Possibly the most dangerous thing Giles could do is reach out ... and form alliances with all those Watchers. Including Kendra's Watcher, all of Buffy's predecessors who are still alive.
If unconnected, just floating around Warren, Andrew, and Jonathon were dangerous ... just think what those guys (and perhaps women) could do. Given that they probably have a low opinion, understandably, of Buffy, her choices, her conduct, and particularly associates of undead status. But then, Buffy has always been in brain-dead denial about the consequences of her vampires to the social cohesion of her group.
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Of course you can have redemption without god -- RJA, 18:10:38 10/03/08 Fri [1] (81.99.124.136)
Or at the very least a reformation. You cannot define the show, the characters and the world through your own prism of belief. The fact that the characters may or may not believe in god means nothing.
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I don't believe that secular redemption is a contradiction in terms. -- dee, 14:26:59 10/09/08 Thu [1] (66.146.36.174)
Redemption can also mean (finally) recovering one's true sense of self after much trial and tribulation in life, whether that be caused by poor choices or by the hand of fate.
From my viewpoint, redemption in the world of BtVS is more about living secular humanism with ultimate faith in oneself and striving to be the best that one can be under trying circumstances, than it ever was about a belief in an external God.
As far as Giles and Buffy go...well that's a tale told throughout time.
Definitely a father/daughter, mentor/student relationship in that she starts out needing him and learning from him and as time goes on she begins to feel she has to break that bond (and so does Giles, really) in order to continue to grow and become the person she feels she's meant to be.
I find it compelling story-telling.
Thanks for bringing up some interesting stuff here on the board, everybody. Now I miss Chani.
:o)
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And where's Eurydice been? I miss her too. -- dee, 14:28:28 10/09/08 Thu [1] (66.146.36.174)
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WjJSKSzNJdDgq -- azwskwizkwm (NNQwGFkahMAgYVKJo), 14:21:18 11/14/08 Fri [1] (138.4.9.196)
r0iy3S jfpejqatorup, [url=http://dhlsdorblibc.com/]dhlsdorblibc[/url], [link=http://zuiybiusvwab.com/]zuiybiusvwab[/link], http://slqfdmztqsmx.com/
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Re: Buffy and Giles' relationship in the comics (season 8) -> possible spoilers. -- Wilma, 08:02:13 10/05/08 Sun [1] (88.195.73.47)
I'm one of those who hasn't read the comics but I have so many online friends who has, that I think I have at least some vague idea about what's going on. It saddended me that Joss seemed pretty much ignore (apart from Faith's story arc) such a great character as Giles in his comics. First I thought Joss was either building him up as the villain... or killing him. While my friend says that Giles isn't going to be the villain of the piece, I still worry Joss might kill him because he doesn't know what to do with Giles.
About Buffy and Giles, it bothers me that Joss ruined the once "ideal" father/daughter relationship. From Joss' shows it became clear that he has definitely some daddy issues, but why did he have to take it on Giles?
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Re: Buffy and Giles' relationship in the comics (season 8) -> possible spoilers. -- ToG, 04:27:26 10/06/08 Mon [1] (24.253.36.42)
My take on it was that Giles and Buffy have been growing farther apart since the end of season 3. Up till Season 7 she tolerated Giles pressents in her life because he was her mentor. However in Season 5 was the first time that Giles struck a chip in the relationship. When it came to his decision and killing Dawn. After that when Buffy died I think he became emotionally detached from the group as a whole and had his one chance to get away and life a normal life. That didn't happen and in Season 6 Buffy who was already lost got told by the one person she thought she could count on to suck it up and go forth.
This lead to a dynamic in relationship roles as Buffy sought guidance and comfort elsewhere hence Spike becomming a increasing part in the series. Spike had taught Buffy alot about slayers and herself whether or not she wanted to admit it. All the way back in season 2 and 3 to season 5. But the fact that the "monster" was willing to do whatever it took to save Dawn and Giles wasn't knocked Giles off of his pedestool in Buffy's eye. Spike very much replaced Giles in season 6 granted he lead Buffy down the dark path but she learned alot about herself. In season 7 this where it all goes wrong because Giles tries to kill Spike. While it didn't work that was the final nail in the coffin because Giles basically showed Buffy that she still wasn't a general to him and that he would do what he wanted. He also tried to take away her own support system the one that was screwed up but was the best available one.
So I'm not really shocked that it happening in season 8 because it's doomed to happen. In the end Giles was the most successful watcher because he taught Buffy to do whatever worked to get the job done. He also taught her alot of life lesson but in doing so he equip her to the point of making himself obsolete. I also think with the council's destruction it basically lined Giles up to the fact that he was going to live the remainder lonely and working for the cause.
As for Silver Agent I disagree that one has to have a belief in a highier being in order to be redeemed. The fact of the matter was in order to be redeemed one has to give up ones own ego and Spike and Angel both did that by realizing that they were going to go to hell. Why support a god/higher being if you know in the end it doesn't matter and doesn't make up for all the wrong you did. Angel and Spike were there own worst enemies but that doesn't mean they can't be redeemed.
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Very, very thoughtful analysis, TOG! -- Gachnar, 11:00:14 10/09/08 Thu [1] (216.186.54.25)
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Re: Buffy and Giles' relationship in the comics (season 8) -> possible spoilers. -- Young at Heart, 21:37:39 10/08/08 Wed [1] (98.112.164.148)
Hi all.....How like we females to 'rebuke' are father figure!?!
I did mine, only to learn years later that the old boy made alot of sense.
I have not read any of the comics (big surprise there!) but I felt I had to respond here, if only for old times sake.
I wonder if Joss isn't playing out the old 'father vs. daughter' scenario.
Girls tend to be
Daddy's little girl when they're growing up...only to turn against their 'fathers' later. It's a rebellious thing, I feel, that maybe, just maybe is a natural part of life?
My 17 year old is rebelling like crazy against her father (and myself to some point) because she feels (*again, I think) that she has outgrown his advice, etc. This attitude may be as old as the earth, I feel.
Maybe this is why we, mankind, rebel against God (if you believe) from time to time.
I don't know, it might just be me feeling old and meloncholy???
Anyway, as far as Angel and Spike go, their belief in God, don't they have to? They denied him, at first, didn't they? Perhaps they are trying to get back to some faith in something, perhaps not. At all costs, I don't think that Angel/Spike enter into the Buffy/Giles relationship.
If Buffy felt betrayed by Giles, then it was probably just the same age old reaction of a daughter and father. Hank Summers may have been Buffy's father, biologically, but he really didn't seem to be, emotionally.
Giles loved Buffy, as a daughter...then she grew away from him/grew up. I really think that all men/father figures resent this natural fact of life. In other words; they always want their little girls to stay that way.
That's just my opinion.
Shout out to everyone...
YAH
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