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Date Posted: Wed, Feb 15, 09:28:37pm CST
Author: Gray Fox
Author Host/IP: 70-101-223-203.dsl1.pco.ca.frontiernet.net / 70.101.223.203
Subject: Re: Leopards and other breeds for gray fox
In reply to: Perry 's message, "Re: Leopards and other breeds for gray fox" on Wed, Feb 15, 07:04:23pm CST

>>>>I have been following this thread with great
>interest
>>>>checking in on it nearly every day, but haven't
>>>>responded due to the lack of time taking care of my
>>>>wife 24-7. By the way, she seems to have improved
>>some
>>>>after 2 treatments of chemo. Praise God! Thanks to
>>all
>>>>who are praying for her!
>>>>Please understand that all of us will never
>>completely
>>>>agree on everything and that is OK. We all have our
>>>>preferences. So what? What I have to say is not to
>>>>downgrade anyone nor is anything stated in anger. I
>>>>have enjoyed reading what some of you think and hope
>>>>that you will enjoy what I write.
>>>>
>>>>I started treeing foxes (grays of course) in the
>>>>mid-fifties. I have treed over two hundred in a year
>>>>at several different periods of my life. I used to
>do
>>>>more fox hunting than anything else except during
>>bear
>>>>season. Bears are and always have been my preferred
>>>>game. Even today, I usually tree anywhere from 30-60
>>>>foxes every year and they are NOT as common as they
>>>>once were and I am not near as young either! Heh!
>>Heh!
>>>>I have trained several different breeds of dogs and
>>>>crosses that would catch a fox. Understand though,
>>>>that there are dogs that tree foxes and then there
>>are
>>>>the real fox dogs. I do know the difference.
>>>>I am much amused by some statements I have heard
>more
>>>>than one coonhunter make over the years about
>"having
>>>>treed a fox while out coonhunting", as if that
>proves
>>>>that they are easily caught. Yeah, right!?? You can
>>>>have a popup on any game. There are also the layups
>>to
>>>>consider. Treeing either doesn't qualify a dog as a
>>>>fox dog. I have treed bears, lions, bobcats and even
>>>>gray fox in a matter of minutes. It happens on any
>>>>game on occasion.
>>>>Rex, I agree with you up to a point on a lot of what
>>>>you wrote, but would not ever pick a July for a gray
>>>>fox dog for several reasons. Maybe I just haven't
>>seen
>>>>the right ones, but I have seen and hunted with
>about
>>>>200 I believe. I have owned numerous July dogs over
>>>>the years and some made passable dogs, but not even
>>>>one was a top fox dog. Some were pretty good on bear
>>>>and some were pretty good cat dogs, but not even one
>>>>made a real fox dog.(When I say fox I mean gray fox.
>>I
>>>>break my dogs off red fox and coyotes. Running
>>>>non-treeing game is completely different.)
>>>>I owned and hunted mostly Triggs for a period of 16
>>>>years. I have owned several top fox dogs that were
>>>>Trigg or mostly Trigg. I would rank the Triggs ahead
>>>>of the July by quite a margin, but... Both the Trigg
>>>>and especially the July lack the toughness to get
>the
>>>>job done day after day. Most of them are once or
>>twice
>>>>a week dogs. They can't take hard running every day.
>>>>Neither breed has real good feet. Part of having
>>tough
>>>>feet is a mattter of judicious hunting and
>toughening
>>>>gradually, but neither the Trigg nor the July has
>>good
>>>>enough feet to continually run on the lava rock
>>around
>>>>here. One race that goes into the lavas will lame
>>them
>>>>up for 2-3 weeks even after you have them in
>>>>condition.
>>>>There are some running dogs that can tree foxes and
>>>>are tougher. In my experience the Goodmans, Croghans
>>>>and some strains of Walkers can. (I have seen some
>>>>Running Walkers that had very soft,poor feet too, as
>>>>well as some of all breeds.) These also often do
>well
>>>>on bear too, and are very gritty in general, with
>the
>>>>exception of many Running Walkers. However,
>Goodmans,
>>>>Croghans, Triggs, Julys, and Running Walkers tend to
>>>>be real fussy/growly in the box. I haven't seen many
>>>>problems under the tree however. They seem to be
>>tuned
>>>>into the game enough to ignore each other, in
>general
>>>>under the tree.
>>>>I never did like the semi-silent nature of the
>Triggs
>>>>and to a lesser degree the July dogs. I am very well
>>>>aware that any semi-silent or silent trailing dog of
>>>>equal ability as an open dog WILL catch a given fox
>>or
>>>>cat in considerably less time. That is of no
>>>>consequence to me.
>>>>
>>>>Now to the main point you made Rex...You think that
>>>>there are very few Leopards that will make gray fox
>>>>dogs. I have to agree with what you said, but not
>>>>necessarily with what you imply. OK..Most Leopards
>>are
>>>>not fox dogs. That is a true statement, but...How
>>many
>>>>Leopards are ever really hunted on gray fox? Not
>>many,
>>>>and that is a lead pipe cinch. I would guess that
>>less
>>>>than 2% of all Leopards are ever hunted on gray fox.
>>>>Of those practically none, including most of those I
>>>>have owned and trained in the past 10 years or so
>>have
>>>>been hunted properly to make a real fox dog. Prior
>to
>>>>the last ten years, I did start most of mine on gray
>>>>fox. It just isn't as easy to do anymore.
>>>>I have yet to see a really top fox dog that wasn't
>>>>started on fox or at least trained on fox
>>concurrently
>>>>with other game for at least a year or so. Very
>often
>>>>I start and train my Leopards on bear and that sort
>>of
>>>>dog will maybe tree a few foxes later if run on fox,
>>>>but will NEVER make a REAL fox dog. Dogs trained on
>>>>bear will overrun the track and make way too many
>>>>loses. A lot of how I train mine depends on when
>they
>>>>reach huntable age and the numbers of available
>>foxes!
>>>>Too often I don't get to start dogs on fox, which
>>>>makes a better dog on all game. A dog that can trail
>>a
>>>>gray fox can trail anything.
>>>>So, Rex...Have you ever run a Leopard on fox only
>>>>until it was pretty much trained? There are Leopards
>>>>that will make top fox dogs, if hunted that way.
>>>>(Understand that running dogs won't make great fox
>>>>dogs either unless their initial training is on
>fox.)
>>>>I presently own two Leopards that are real fox dogs.
>>I
>>>>have four others that will tree some foxes, but they
>>>>aren't "foxdogs". The main criterion for staying in
>>my
>>>>pack has to do with being a bear dog, but I surely
>do
>>>>enjoy fox hunting! Speed is not the big issue with
>>>>treeing gray foxes. Running a track steadily without
>>>>making a lot of loses and continually "jerking the
>>>>slack out of the track" will tree the fox.
>>>>As a breed, I would choose the Leopard even if I
>just
>>>>wanted to cat and fox hunt. They are tougher, have
>>>>better feet and are so much more fun to hunt, mainly
>>>>because they are so much more obedient. They also
>>take
>>>>the cold better than any breed I have ever been
>>>>around. Besides that, you can hunt them hard every
>>day
>>>>and they are like the "Energizer Bunny"...they just
>>>>keep going and going!! I also prefer open trailing.
>>>>The American Leopard Cur, as Perry noted, is
>>>>intelligent enough to be successful at many things
>if
>>>>properly trained. As for me I will continue to hunt
>>>>Leopards, because they suit me best.
>>>>Randy
>>> Randy, I'm glad to hear your wife is doing better.
>>>We HAVE been praying, and in earnest. We have a small
>>>prayer group at Church that truly pray and God
>>>answers! Iam sure we are in agreement in our faith.
>>> Now, as always , you have to dissagree with me on
>>>most things, I have come to expect that. I will make
>>>only a few points. I feel qualified to comment on
>>>Leopards, even yours, as I owned and hunted with most
>>>of their ancestors. I recall telling you, when you
>>>started breeding theses dogs dogs for bear, that
>after
>>>breeding your own for a few generations, selectively,
>>>you could probably improve them on bear. That is same
>>>thing I said, for gray fox. Next, Everyone knows gray
>>>fox tree much more, out there. And as for the strain
>>>of Julys I referred to, they have been bred for many
>>>generations specifacally for gray fox, here, in dense
>>>brush. You have NEVER seen or hunted with them. how
>>>can you know how they hold up?? I will not debate
>this
>>>with you, any further. As for dogs, I no longer hunt
>>>much, I took up fishing, for my Savior! Rex
>>
>>Rex,
>>I do disagree with you on some, or maybe just a few
>>things but certainly not "most" things as you stated
>>above. I don't think you really believe that, or at
>>least you overstated it. I think we agree on a great
>>many things and our many good conversations over the
>>years emphasize that to me. Whenever we discuss
>>anything we do have a tendancy to dwell more on our
>>points of difference. Keep on fishing, amigo! Randy
>You fellas are truly blessed to have so many choices
>of game to persue!! Do either of you have wild hogs??
>In these parts we have coyote and red fox. Both are
>taboo for my dogs. Neither could either be ran with
>dogs with any great success due to the roads being so
>plentiful. A few years back some fella tried coyotes.
>It did not take the coyotes long to learn the safety
>of the 4 lane highway. They would get in the medium
>and most hounds were smacked in a very short while. I
>can't remember the last time I heard anyone in my neck
>of the woods even mention gray fox. I have been going
>to a local fur buyer for 3 years and have not seen a
>single gray fox hide. I hear down toward Pennsylvania
>they are getting a few bobcats and a stray bear
>ocassionally. Because of my lack of first hand
>experience with these different forms of game I feel
>unqualified to get to deep in this conversation. But
>confidence in my leopards over all has rarely been an
>issue. I have enjoyed the past few post topics on the
>board. Thanks to all for taking part.

Yes, Perry there are a few wild hogs near me. I don't hunt them with my dogs anymore and never did a whole lot. I do like to kill one every once in awhile... if I see a nice fat one! I can be in some pigs in about 45 minutes from home. That is kind of hit and miss pig hunting there though. About two hours away there is some good hunting with plenty of hogs. Most of that is private ground though. Come on out sometime and I will show you some different hunting with the kind of dogs you and I both like! Randy

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