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Date Posted: Sun, Jan 27, 06:41:55pm CST
Author: Rex
Author Host/IP: cpe-065-188-186-216.triad.res.rr.com / 65.188.186.216
Subject: Re: Just wondering??
In reply to: Tommy Prince 's message, "Re: Just wondering??" on Thu, Jan 24, 09:26:39pm CST

>>>>>>>>>Just curious... What are folks thoughts on dogs
>>>>>bred
>>>>>>>>>for coon in the Carolinas or southern swamps vs
>>>>>bear
>>>>>>>>>bred dogs for Wi. and MN. vs cat dogs for
>>Montana
>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>Idaho. Will they all be bred the same for the
>>>same
>>>>>>>>>traits, size etc?? Never bear or cat hunted
>>>>myself.
>>>>>>>>>Never hunted in bear or cat country either. But
>>I
>>>>>do
>>>>>>>>>believe the differnt terrain and game would
>>cause
>>>>>>>>>breeders to breed a little different dog than
>>>>maybe
>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>>>coon hunter in the midwest. With that said if
>>all
>>>>>>>>>these dogs were lets say walkers in the
>>beginning
>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>had bred for generations in these regions for
>>>>>>>seperate
>>>>>>>>>jobs are they still all the same breed or what?
>>I
>>>>>>>>>believe yes but some folks don't seem to think
>>>so.
>>>>>I
>>>>>>>>>really think that a dog bred and raised by a
>>>>>>seasoned
>>>>>>>>>bear hunter in WA. for generations may differ
>>>from
>>>>>a
>>>>>>>>>dog here in OHIO from the same foundation stock
>>>>but
>>>>>>>>>bred for generations for coon hunting.I know
>>when
>>>>I
>>>>>>>>>was a kid dogs from open country like Kansas
>and
>>>>>>>>>Oklahoma tended to be a good bit bigger than
>>dogs
>>>>>>>>>raised here in Ohio and Indiana where live
>stock
>>>>>>>woven
>>>>>>>>>wire fences were common.I think a bear bred
>>>>leopard
>>>>>>>in
>>>>>>>>>Ca. vs a coon bred leopard here in Ohio are
>both
>>>>>>>>>leopards.
>>>>>>>> good point, Perry. Selective breeding can
>>result
>>>>>in
>>>>>>>>differing dogs, from same pedigrees. Bear bred
>>>dogs
>>>>>>in
>>>>>>>>our area must be powerful hard running dogs that
>>>>can
>>>>>>>>take a lot of punishment from the terrain and
>>long
>>>>>>>>hrs. they do not have to be extremly quick
>>>>locators,
>>>>>>>>or have to be lay up dogs, but dogs of this
>>>>breeding
>>>>>>>>can do all this. Bobcat and gray fox dogs must
>be
>>>>>>able
>>>>>>>>to push a track and not let the critter rest
>when
>>>>it
>>>>>>>>plays its tricks, and must also be very good
>>>>>locators
>>>>>>>>unlike a beardog. Coon dog has to be agood track
>>>>>dog,
>>>>>>>>and if a hunter wants a really good dog, the dog
>>>>>must
>>>>>>>>be a lay up and pressure tree dog, and split
>>tree.
>>>>>>>>Many of our origanal dogs were good at most of
>>>>these
>>>>>>>>things. My question is; how well will a dog used
>>>>for
>>>>>>>>only for big game, retain the traits needed to
>>>>>excell
>>>>>>>>as a coon dog over several generations? Also, if
>>>>>bred
>>>>>>>>for slow trailing , how many generations will
>>they
>>>>>>>>retain the heads up, run to catch,mentality?
>>>Maybe
>>>>>>we
>>>>>>>>would have two breeds, but which is a Cur, and
>>>>which
>>>>>>>>is a trail hound? Rex
>>>>>>>Rex my opinion we are allredy heading down that
>>>>trail
>>>>>>>with the use of selective breeding for different
>>>>>game.
>>>>>> dog are very ez to change in the breed in only 3
>>>>gen.
>>>>>>you can change things alot if you take and breed
>>for
>>>>>>that one thing that you want. evolution takes time
>>>>but
>>>>>>with dogs it does not take as long. take the farm
>>>>>>raised fox back when they started to raise fox in
>>>>pins
>>>>>>some would bite you and go crazy in the pin. a
>>>>>>professor dread only the fox that would not bite
>>>when
>>>>>>you put your hand in the cage in 3 gen they had
>>pups
>>>>>>that would not bite but liked people and the color
>>>>had
>>>>>>changed. so with anybody trying to get something
>>>that
>>>>>>works for them you are going to change things with
>>>in
>>>>>>the breed. in the end you can not have a different
>>>>>>breed just traits. hmmmmm
>>>>>
>>>>>I've always thought that it was crazy for guys to
>>pay
>>>>>30K for a dog when all of it's ancestors werebred
>>>for,
>>>>>raised and trained on, and evaluated for breeding
>>for
>>>>>hunting coon. That same guy could have gone and
>>>>>bought a 5K to 7K cat dog and broke it from cats
>and
>>>>>started running it on coon and had at least as good
>>a
>>>>>dog. This is however ignoring all of the
>marketable
>>>>>things that don't actually have to do with ability,
>>>>>such as the right look, the right pedigree and the
>>>>>right previous owner. At any rate, dogs that are
>>>tops
>>>>>on cats and gray fox have to come with much more
>>>>>talent than a coon dog. If you have hunted with
>>that
>>>>>kind of dog, it's easy to see. The very best cat
>>>dogs
>>>>>that I have been to the woods with have been: 1. A
>>>>>grade walker named Rocket. He was the very best
>>from
>>>>>truck to tree. 2. A moutnain cur named Pepper that
>>>>>became good at cats late in life and is still going
>>>>>strong at age 11. 3. A crossbred dog named Camo
>>who,
>>>>>as the name implies, is out of Wick's Camo Jug.
>Her
>>>>>mother is a 1/2 border collie and 1/2 Plott. She
>>>>>caught more cats on the ground in a row than any
>dog
>>>>>I've ever herd of. She is quite an astounding dog
>>>and
>>>>>also still alive. Coincedentaly Pepper, the mtn.
>>>cur,
>>>>>was hunted mostly on coon. She was later bought
>and
>>>>>retrained on cat. So there are exceptions. On the
>>>>>other side of things, some of the very best cat
>dogs
>>>>>come out of kennels that never run cats, only
>coon.
>>>I
>>>>>don't think it's very easy to make a blanket
>>>statement
>>>>>on this subject but if I had to put down a bet i
>>>would
>>>>>go with the statement, They Would Be Different. I
>>>>>feel that it has more to do with the breeder
>though.
>>>>Cat dogs. I think that this type of dog is very hard
>>>>to find let alone have a breeding program that would
>>>>produce them. Most good bare ground cat hunters that
>>I
>>>>have seen, use a pack of dogs because one just can't
>>>>do it with consistency. Snow makes it easier but not
>>>>easy.
>>>One more thing. If leopard cur breeders can breed
>dogs
>>>that will consistently catch bare ground cat, they
>>>will become the most popular coon dog in the US.
>> Tommy, I know that you are a serious cat hunter,
>>always looking for a better dog. Breed is not your
>>priority, catching a cat is. I have a friend, that
>>catches more game, of all kinds, than any breeder. He
>>gets his dogs from shelters, watches for traits. He's
>>had weenie dogs, German sheps, his best was a long
>>haired chiwawa SP? this dog only weighed eight pounds.
>>He caught over a thousand coon, and more squirrel,
>>with Brownie. I hunted with him a lot. This man
>>wouldn't own a hound. He also catches more, and larger
>>bass than anyone I know; sight fishes, not an angler.
>>My point, we are breeding a breed that reproduces its
>>likeness. Thats our goal, to breed Leopards, and
>>improve them. Personally, I beleive our breed is large
>>enough to have these differing strains, and still be a
>>breed. But if I were a serious cat and gray fox
>>hunter, I'd hunt July crosses,they can catch them, but
>>very few make top coon dog.I say it takes a smarter
>>dog, to make a TOP NOTCH coon dog, but thats just my
>>opipion...Rex
>Rex, you are right. Cat dogs are just hard to find and
>some of the best that I have seen are mixed up every
>which way. Also, most were owned by an exceptional
>hunter. The latter may have been the main ingredient.
>Maybe the reason I have so much trouble. I don't know
>whether it takes a smarter dog to make a top notch
>coon dog but I think that a top notch cat dog is
>harder to find. I don't think that the style of a top
>cat dog would suit a lot of coon hunters. However,
>this type dog would catch all the coons one would want
>but not coon dog style. Julys are hard to come by
>around here. Don't know of anyone who has running
>dogs. Too many roads and new houses. Would like to
>find a half July that would look up but I got enough
>young dogs to mess with now. I also do not like the
>way most Julys are wired. At my age there will be
>more coon hunting than cat hunting from now on. I like
>the style of my young leps so far. They will do ok on
>coon and, if they do good on cat, that is the bonus.
>Had a good cat race last night but likely went to
>ground in rock ledge. Had my mountain curs on it and
>they drove it hard. They will not tree in a hole
>unless they can see something. Got them as pups and
>hoped they would be silent on cat. They are silent on
>coon but flat open on cat and can move one out. They
>can cold trail a little buy won't work a cold track
>very long.
>tp
Tommy, I'm with you on finding good dogs; cat or coon dog. Some coon dogs can be found, but not many of the kind we like. Can a trained cat dog be bought, in our part of the world ?? I'm sure they are out west, but how about around here? Russ Barney gave me a trained cat dog, out of a female I sent out there, and his Buster dog. She was a nice dog, but had no idea how to hunt around here, roads,houses,etc.She got ran over, crossing a hiway last spring.Was after trailing a cat, at a good clip, and it turned up the creek toward a busy HWY. Tried to catch up but didnt get there in time. Burying good dogs has just about done me in. Around here, a dog MUST handle perfect, or keep shock collar on to p[revent this sort of thing, our country is going fast. How well do you like the Mtn Curs? Rex

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