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Date Posted: Tue, May 22, 12:09:10pm CST
Author: david p
Author Host/IP: ip66.lacrosse.lib.wi.us / 204.145.232.66
Subject: Re: About "black" for Sparkieg...
In reply to: Randy Oller 's message, "About "black" for Sparkieg..." on Mon, May 21, 11:43:11am CST

>Sparkieg...The question about black is really one
>about "no-trim"...There are solid blacks and dogs
>without tan or brindle trim and both are cropping up
>for the same genetic reason.
>The "no-trim" is not a Leopard trait and it came from
>the Clark-bred dogs in general, not just Jug. I wish
>we had included a question about that, but at the time
>of the survey we didn't have the information to have
>asked the question properly. Now we know a little
>more,because we know merle with/trim and black
>with/trim "Clark-bred" dogs are throwing "no-trim"
>dogs, which excludes the possibility of its being a
>"dominant trait. I did not know if it was a
>"dominant", "recessive", or incomplete dominance. It
>is pretty clear that it is not a real "dominant" at
>this time.
>When you asked (and I am quoting you): "Should all of
>these dogs out of these litters be single registered
>or that you you guys that put out the survey have some
>of these dogs and they don't need to be questined."
>First... I find this more than a little insulting. I
>have no way to know what your tone is here, but it is
>insulting the way it is written, which you may not
>have intended. Jed and I do each have a double-Jug
>pup, but this had nothing to do with our not including
>a question about "no trim". You and I both know people
>who are in our association who own one or more "brand
>X" dogs. We have had absolutely nothing to do with any
>Clark dogs coming into the breed. This is something we
>inherited. As for Jug specifically, the vote (at the
>annual meeting) was UNANIMOUS to register Jug, but not
>with the phony pedigree.
>I have said for several years that I had never seen a
>Clark-bred dog that was a bear dog. A couple of guys
>have criticised me for those statements, in spite of
>the fact that I have always explained that I had never
>known of one that had had an adequate chance (to
>become a bear dog). I want to see for myself if they
>have the grit. Presently there are four "Clark-bred
>dogs in the right hands to have the opportunity to
>prove the "grit" question. I have no reason to believe
>thay don't have the grit to be a bear dog, but I DO
>want to see for myself. My owning this "double-Jug"
>dog is simply my way of giving one of them a chance
>for my own information. Whether or not I will use this
>dog or any in my own breeding is still a question. Jed
>can speak for himself, but I will say that he has
>owned 3, and only one is under any consideration for
>breeding. One is a really good dog that he still owns,
>but she won't be used for breeding, because she is a
>double merle. The other has been spayed and given
>away. I have been curious about the Clark-bred dogs
>for a long time, because I have seen several that were
>the real deal as coon dogs.
>Sparkieg...You may have more questions. I will try to
>answer if you do. I would be happy to talk with you on
>the phone, as well as answering here. We have a unique
>and wonderful breed of dogs that can sell themselves.
>I would like to be a part of promoting the image. Our
>member numbers are dwindling, but that is not the
>Leopards' fault.
>Randy

I will add a few comments, just because I have some experience with the clark bred dogs. I am not a bear hunter, but have been around bear dogs and bear hunters my entire dog hunting years. I will be very surprised if the clark dogs make bear dogs from what I have seen. They were not bred to be bear dogs, and as far as I know, have not one bear bred dog in their ancestry.

The remarkable miracle to me is that they were not bred to be bobcat dogs either, but three that I know of have been hunted on bobcat and shown themselves able to catch bobcats on a pretty regular basis. The two that I came to know very well lack a couple things for being a complete and well balanced bobcat dog though. I am listing them here, not to slam the dogs because they are two of my favorite dogs, but by way of passing on knowledge that took a lot of money and time and energy to aquire.

1)They are not tough enough. This is an attitude. Imagine two kids (a and b) on the football team. A)One breaks his thumb and doesnt tell the coach so he can still play. Then he suffers and concusion, cant remember the plays, but he wont tell anyone because he wants to still play.
The other one B) breaks his thumb and immediately asks to be taken out of the game.

My Clark dogs were kinda like the second kid. It is not unreasonable at all that the kid be taken out of the game. In fact it is the logical, intellegent thing to do. Yet I have always needed the first boy in my dog pack as far as attitude and desire. The Clark dogs are almost too intellegent and having human-like qualities to intentionally punish their body in these ways.

One of the two had enough experience to get to the point where she could just about catch a bobcat whenever she wanted it. This is the only dog of this caliber I have been close to in my almost 30 years of dogging. YEt, she got to the point where, if she did not feel on top of her game that day, she would tag along. She got tired of facing those big bobcats all by herself. This, on top of the fact that when she did bay a bobcat, she stood back so far that their was no way in God's green earth that this bobcat could make contact with her. She would stay behind the cat as well. Smart dog? Extremely smart dog. The smartest tree dog I have ever worked with. Her style of baying far back and behind worked perfect with another dog that would get up close and bay in the face, as the cat felt like his back door was blocked, and he would hold perfectly in one spot (unlike the 'moving bay' where the cat keeps slipping out the back door.)

One of these two dogs had a coat so thin that I would have to pull her out of the box if temps got below 0 degrees. Yet I have had thin coated dogs that would not hesitate to come out of the box to go hunting on a sub zero day. Not very smart of these other dogs really, as body parts can freeze.
The Clark dogs are more human than that. Would you go out hunting in that weather with no clothes on? I doubt it.

These dogs might not even be typical for the Clark dogs. I have not seen enough to know. But if they are, these are some of the reasons I dont beleive they could possibly make great bear dogs. They are not tough enough to shake off difficult or uncomfortable situations, and they are not going to intentionally put themselves where they are going to get hurt.

To me it is a mystery why dogs bred for coon would have some of the track moving ability that I witnessed. They have an uncanny ability to get themselves to where the game is, and wrap up the deal in less time than another dog might take. I have seen them leave the track completely when they think they can get to the animal quicker by doing that. I have seen them locate and begin treeing from a distance and come into the tree treeing while other dogs are milling. I have seen them locate and tree without ever putting their nose to the ground or to the tree trunk. I have seen a couple things that to me were so remarkable that I have no way of explaining the way they came up with the game, and I watched it happen.

I have owned 5 Leopards and 3 "camus curs" who had a famous Leopard for a father or granfather. Of those 8 dogs, Three of them were direct daughters of Wicks Camo Jug. Of those 8 dogs only 3 were not culled. These three have gone on to become better than average dogs. Remember, I am not a leopard cur man, I am just a hunter. Those three dogs not culled were the Clark bred dogs.

I have watched two direct descentants of Jug be culled. Both were male. They were not mine, and the decision was not mine.

I am going to share an opinion here as an outsider. I am sticking my neck out, because I dont have to try and be politically correct. The preasure is off me, as I have no dogs now, and can not hunt. I dont want to hurt anyones feelings, yet will speak my opinion here according to my own limited experience, and limited intellegence. I have not had the opportunity to experience every strain of Leopard. Yet I cant immagine that there are too many that exceed the intellegence and the natural giftedness of the two Jug daughters that I am most familiar with. I have never owned dogs that were more gifted. (I have owned dogs with more desire, and sometimes, desire can make up for lack of giftedness.)

If people dont want the Clark bred dogs included in the Leopard Cur world, then kick them out. Get on with it. Dont even blink an eye. There is no registry in the world that can tell me what those dogs are. I have seen what they are in the woods.
Those dogs can stand on their own ability and do not need the support of this registry. Do not feel guilty about removing them from the registry if that is what folks want. People with Clark dogs: let it go.

John Clark never registered them with ALCBA. I doubt if he would now. In my opinion, being kicked out of the ALCBA might very well be the best possible thing that could happen to those dogs. That might motivate someone to start a registry for the Clark dogs, call them "Leopard Hounds" get them included in the UKC, compete with other hounds, and let the whole world see what these dogs can do. They need a bigger forum than 15 dogs at the world hunt, and they deserve to be seen by more people than the closed, bitter, back biting, and dying secret society of the Leopard Cur world will allow. They are not perfect. Not even close. But they are good dogs.

And to the Leopard folks. IF you think maybe a strong outcross might not hurt the ALCBA dogs any, Look no further. If your goal is dogs with trim though, might have to stay away from these dogs. Sincerly, David P

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