Is he not finding a "forever" love because of his orientation or because he has a military - style life where he is on campaign through the warmer months and in training and camp throughout the winter months. Once the regiment gets their marching orders he barely has time for Percy anyway, he has 90 seconds before falling asleep in which ti deal with any passing thoughts of him he may have time for. Does he pine for Jamie or the notion of Jamie? He knows Jamie through Ardsmuir but how unguarded were those conversation really? They discussed books and played chess, discussed military campaigns - I think John is in love with the idea of having that relationship plus the physical pleasures but it also indicates that he values the intellectual closeness more than the physical closeness. Maybe that's why he never feels closer to Isobel than a brother or family friend, she couldn't meet him on an intellectual level. Had she been able to they might have been happier. -- LJG Discussion board

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Date Posted: 09:48:04 10/18/07 Thu
Author: kgp
Subject: Is he not finding a "forever" love because of his orientation or because he has a military - style life where he is on campaign through the warmer months and in training and camp throughout the winter months. Once the regiment gets their marching orders he barely has time for Percy anyway, he has 90 seconds before falling asleep in which ti deal with any passing thoughts of him he may have time for. Does he pine for Jamie or the notion of Jamie? He knows Jamie through Ardsmuir but how unguarded were those conversation really? They discussed books and played chess, discussed military campaigns - I think John is in love with the idea of having that relationship plus the physical pleasures but it also indicates that he values the intellectual closeness more than the physical closeness. Maybe that's why he never feels closer to Isobel than a brother or family friend, she couldn't meet him on an intellectual level. Had she been able to they might have been happier.
In reply to: pamelalass 's message, "Percy is weak, and I don't have any patience for him, either. But I do wonder why it seems that Grey is so alone - - are there no other men who prefer men who are also equal to him in strength, honor, courage, etc? So far he has a string of love affairs that have ended badly; his lovers are either weak, or dead. I know we've talked about Stephan as a possible soul mate, but is it possible that part of the Grey "mystique" is his alone-ness? And if there is an unpleasant subtext in the fact that Grey is not granted a worthy love interest and a "forever love", should we chalk it up to the historical circumstances facing a homosexual man in the 18th century? But why does he have to pine so for a heterosexual man he can never have?" on 06:02:30 10/18/07 Thu

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Replies:

Wow, you've got a lot of interesting things here! I so agree that John needs the intellectual along with the physical, and that he and Jamie "clicked" as intellectual friends and equals, and maybe the notion of there being something more ends up being just that, a notion. But certainly even in this book, where they are so at odds, he continues to fixate on Jamie's specific physical presence - - details of his appearance, tone of voice, even his sleeping quarters! So it does feel to me as if there's a subtext that suggests the only person who could truly be everything John needs is a larger-than-life, romantic, virile - - and heterosexual - - hero. I like your thought about Isobel, too. Too bad she wouldn't have had access to the same kind of education, if not to the other experiences that shaped John's intellect. (NT) -- pamelalass, 11:13:57 10/18/07 Thu
- "he continues to fixate on Jamie's specific physical presence " Don't we all???? I wonder of part of it for John at least is the mystery of Jamie. Who is this man, really? What is it about him beyond just physical presence (NT) -- kgp, 11:52:30 10/18/07 Thu
  - I have to say, I see John's love for Jaime as a combination of unrequited love and infatuation. What I mean is, it is so much easier to love some one from afar when you aren't *really* their lover. You can fixate on the tiny details, love all the little insignificant pieces of them, but still never *know* them the way a spouse or lover will. Unrequited love and infatuation can become so much bigger than yourself in a situation like this. Because there is no return or hope of return of affection, Johns feelings are like that dragon fly in amber, frozen in time with no forward motion or growth. (NT) -- Oleander, 12:37:02 10/18/07 Thu
    - Oleander - this is what I've been saying for years - that John can and will NEVER know Jamie the way Claire does. It is impossible. (NT) -- GwenM, 15:27:03 10/18/07 Thu
      - The same for Black Jack Randall - when he confronted Claire in the churchyard with how she could never give Jamie what he did. That's bull and he was blowing hot air. BJR could never know Jamie the way Claire did/does. (NT) -- GwenM, 15:31:14 10/18/07 Thu
        I don't see Jack Randall's unstable, criminal obsession as a parallel here, or as unrequited love. (NT) -- pamelalass, 17:33:56 10/18/07 Thu
      - Of course it is impossible; they'll never be lovers, spouses, soul mates, or any of the other things that Jamie is for Claire. John and Claire know Jamie in completely different ways, as they each acknowledge. But why shouldn't John, the hero of his own story, have his own "Claire", even if his "Claire" would need to be a man like Jamie? (NT) -- pamelalass, 16:37:20 10/18/07 Thu
        I hear you! I think that John should have his own Claire. Will he find someone who will help him move past Jaime? I certainly hope so. (NT) -- Oleander, 07:13:43 10/19/07 Fri
    - Oleander, this is beautiful, especially your bittersweet characterization of unrequited love! (NT) -- pamelalass, 17:30:30 10/18/07 Thu
      - Awww, thanks Pamela ! *blushes* (NT) -- Oleander, 09:47:54 10/19/07 Fri
    - Plus---John also seems to be still mourning Hector - who we know he did love and although he is ready to move on, even the physical aspect he isn't as ready to share some things that he freely shared with Hector...although the rape happened after, still, he seems to be like a widower and Jamie is *safe* since there is no real chance of it happening. ye ken? (NT) -- Ciara, 22:18:12 10/20/07 Sat
  - Yeah, we do! Fixate, that is... *G* I think I was as breathless reading the scene where John looks around the stable loft for a place to leave the note, as he was...! It was oddly intimate to "see" Jamie's humble sleeping quarters that way, and reminded me of the small details of his life in the cave. (NT) -- pamelalass, 16:42:24 10/18/07 Thu

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