I can't resist..I posted this below inside my post about the paper written about that Jacobite Trilogy I recommended it is perfect for this friendship conversation "Gabaldon's highly entertaining historical adventures are particularly memorable for the fresh twist she gives to friendships between men, especially the convoluted friendship between the young Highland chieftain Jamie Fraser and the English soldier Lord John Grey."... "It is clear that Gabaldon has read the Trilogy; and the Fraser/Grey relationship surely owes something to Ewen Cameron and Keith Windham. Like Cameron, Gabaldon's tall redheaded hero is saved from a firing squad after Culloden by an English soldier who owes him a debt of honour; and Gabaldon looks at similar themes of friendship and allegiance." So, weird as their friendship might seem to us..we can't say it isn't a true friendship. As Jamie told Claire, "friends are where you find them." -- LJG Discussion board

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Date Posted: 16:04:50 10/23/07 Tue
Author: Jane
Subject: I can't resist..I posted this below inside my post about the paper written about that Jacobite Trilogy I recommended it is perfect for this friendship conversation "Gabaldon's highly entertaining historical adventures are particularly memorable for the fresh twist she gives to friendships between men, especially the convoluted friendship between the young Highland chieftain Jamie Fraser and the English soldier Lord John Grey."... "It is clear that Gabaldon has read the Trilogy; and the Fraser/Grey relationship surely owes something to Ewen Cameron and Keith Windham. Like Cameron, Gabaldon's tall redheaded hero is saved from a firing squad after Culloden by an English soldier who owes him a debt of honour; and Gabaldon looks at similar themes of friendship and allegiance." So, weird as their friendship might seem to us..we can't say it isn't a true friendship. As Jamie told Claire, "friends are where you find them."
In reply to: Jane 's message, "Well, John obviously thought they were friends, just before the quote from DOA I posted above John said "We were friends. Then...he discovered my feelings for him. We were no longer friends." Jamie's thinking that his visits with John in prison was like life in the cave in reverse going from the "crowded, cold, squualor of the cells going to the Major's glowing suite, able for a few hours to stretch both body and mind, to relax in warmth and conversation" perhaps not a declaration of friendship but there was something about the relationship that he valued and hated to lose." on 15:51:36 10/23/07 Tue

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Aye! John did think they were friends; he'd have never fooled himself into making a pass at Jamie if he didn't. All I'm trying to say is that their relationship takes a serious roller coaster ride before they both, at the same time, can say they are friends. (NT) -- MelvaT, 16:34:07 10/23/07 Tue

Melva, Jane, Karen, I love this discussion! I find this "convoluted" friendship immensely compelling and addictive to ponder. Jane, I just found your excerpt from the Broster thesis on the other board, and it was a great Aha! moment , re-contextualizing these two. There's this "classic" formula, with it's powerful themes of conflicted loyalties, duty, love, honor, etc., and then there's DG's rather subversive re-shaping, which does indeed infuse it with neon intensity. I just re-read their fateful meeting, when John is 16 and Jamie humiliates him, but with honor. (Thanks to WendyMF for triggering this delightful mini-reread for me!) Much will pass between them to cause anger and mistrust, yet Jamie's treatment of John with dignity created a foundation that they will eventually find their way back to, even if John first thinks he is a craven outlaw and "Scottish poltroon" and then here in BOTB we see Jamie reviling John's love for men as cowardly and base. (NT) --

pamelalass, 17:09:19 10/23/07 Tue

Oh, and let's not forget "unprincipled voluptuary"!! It made Jamie laugh at the time, but it's oddly ironic, since that's basically what he later thinks, and articulates, about John's involvement with Percy, and his interest in men rather than women. (NT) -- pamelalass, 17:14:44 10/23/07 Tue
- Oh, this is much more fun than the homework I am supposed to be doing! I am wondering how much of the animosity that erupts and the trust that develops is because of the reflection each sees of himself in the other. Jamie might well have tried the same romantic heroics as John at that age. He recognizes the foolish brand of adolescent bravery. I now will go obediently back to my discussion of performance evaluations and merit increases. (shoot me, please!) (NT) -- kgp, 18:16:53 10/23/07 Tue
  - Nope, can't shoot ya. You're too much fun. :-) (NT) -- MelvaT, 18:21:29 10/23/07 Tue

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