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Wednesday, May 01, 16:12:06

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• To never have set eyes upon Jamie??? Perish the thought! But to only be allowed brief moments of charged interaction 4 times a year must be a bittersweet torment for John and he's all too aware of it. I'm glad he realizes he does love Percy but also recognizes the limits of his affection. He's not going to throw away everything for less than what he deserves. (NT) -- kgp, 05:50:58 10/24/07 Wed
  • I know he says (or reflects to himself) right here that he loves Percy, but it just feels so tepid. I never felt that he was so connected to Percy that he would have been utterly bereft without him, even when their physical passion was quite fresh and strong. There was never that phenomenon of owning, and being owned. (NT) -- pamelalass, 07:30:36 10/24/07 Wed
    • It was certainly not the level of connection we hope John to find. I think the level of affection John has for Percy is like you or I would feel for that really nice guy we used to date but it just didn't work out. Good luck to him, wish him well but no heartbreak. It's worth a pint of B&Js and a bit of wistfulness but it's okay that it's over. (NT) -- kgp, 07:48:43 10/24/07 Wed
      • And remember, the two sides of a coin. With Jaime, John has the kind of love which is unrequited and unreturned. With Percy, he has a physical and emotional relationship in which John is known and understood for who he is. Burning passion, no. But affection and caring- this is a sort of love too. (NT) -- Oleander, 10:40:15 10/24/07 Wed
        • Weel, he's known and understood for who he is in some ways, but Percy does really miss the point on some of the essential John - - the honor, duty, sacrifice pieces of his character. I guess I am willing to accept the love they share as such - - a sort of love - - and in real life we have to accept these kinds of omissions from our lovers/mates all the time, but in the context of these books and their magnificent exploration of soul-possessing love, it is certainly second-rate! (NT) -- pamelalass, 14:28:27 10/24/07 Wed
  
  

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• For John, having someone with whom to share physical intimacy and friendship is not a small consideration, love or no. When reading this moment in the book, though, I felt a sad relief that John recognizes that he cannot trust Percy nor share a less than acceptable life with him. I was surprised to read that John wishes that he never set eyes on James...but that probably best describes just how painful it is for John to exist with unrequited love. After Willie, though, would John still feel this way? I think no. (NT) -- teddie (), 14:50:48 10/24/07 Wed
  • Hi teddie, so good to 'see' you! I think you are right about the pain of wanting something you know you can never have perhaps feeling worse than never knowing you wanted it in the first place (if that makes any sense at all...?). About Willie, are you thinking that John loves being a father, and the fact that Willie is a part of Jamie gives him some measure of happiness? That's tricky, isn't it, because the constant reminder of Jamie could be painful, too? I would love to read more about John and Willie together, to better understand their relationship. I suppose there's space for that in a future book that would also tell more about how Jamie and John get to be friends (again). (NT) -- pamelalass, 15:03:37 10/24/07 Wed
    • Hey, Pamelalass....yes, I think that John's life might be forever changed once Willie enters it, for both reasons that you mention. I also like that DG illustrates that being both homosexual and a good parent are not mutually exclusive traits. (Don't know whether this was intentional or not on her part.) The fact that Willie grows to be such a wonderful young man (as so far as we've been able to know) is further testament to John's committment to raising Willie. I feel that accepting the care of Willie, knowing that he will be forever reminded of James through his child is a supremely unselfish act on John's part. I look forward to more, more, more. If I have been this excited about a new Lord John book, I will doubtless lose my mind when Book Seven comes out! (NT) -- teddie (), 15:35:31 10/24/07 Wed
      • Willie is someone John never imagined he would have, a child of the heart by someone he loves. (NT) -- kgp, 18:23:12 10/24/07 Wed
        • Oh, kgp, that is a beautiful thought! (NT) -- teddie, 18:40:11 10/24/07 Wed
        • Oh yes, beautiful! I've often thought that one of the reasons Claire has cause to be jealous of John is that he in effect has a son "with" Jamie. She and Jamie have Bree, but she was not given the gift of having a son with him (not that I'm sure she would have wanted another child, and I know she doesn't want a son instead of Bree! I'm just saying.... John does have a son "by" Jamie, and Claire does not, and a man's son is, well, a man's son.). What's really painful is that Jamie has had to be the absent parent in both cases. (NT) -- pamelalass, 19:25:00 10/24/07 Wed
          • I found that to be a compelling subtext in John and Claire's conversation in DOA, that each has recently found out the other has had the keeping and cherishing of a child of Jamie's, something here to fore thought to be an exclusive priviledge. (NT) -- kgp, 05:18:38 10/25/07 Thu
  
  

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• This quote was twisting my mind so much I had to talk to someone in the 'know' before I could play today. Here's how the differences were explained to me. >>>> -- MelvaT, 16:43:26 10/24/07 Wed
  • Melva, your excellent analysis makes good sense to me. I mentioned way down the board that Percy was too weak and too accustomed to giving himself away--which he does all too easily in his betrayal of John, without even considering the alternate solution of trusting John enough to ask for his help. I've always found John to seem incredibly well-adjusted for his social position and sexual orientation. John recalls his own previous close call with being discovered, providing a grim awareness of his own precarious well-being vs Percy's disgrace. (NT) -- teddie, 17:57:12 10/24/07 Wed
  • I think Percy exhibits traits we might associate with anyone who has used sex as a tool to get along. Remember that girl in high school who gave it away as a way to gain a semblance of love even though she ended up disdained by just about everyone? That's not quite what I see in Percy but close enough for what little brain I have left tonight. MelvaT, you have a good point. Percy doesn't see the level of giving that John sees in physical intimacy although he does love John. (NT) -- kgp, 18:20:54 10/24/07 Wed
    • kgp , Percy does sorta remind me of her, actually my HS had several *LOL* >>>> -- MelvaT, 19:24:50 10/24/07 Wed
  • WOW. Melva, thank you so much for taking the time to share these thoughtful comments. I hope you will also thank whoever your friend 'in the know' is. I think you are right that there are nuances to the physical intimacy depicted in the book, as varying expressions of desire/passion/love, that may not be as clear or obvious to most of us in the conversation here. >>>> -- pamelalass, 19:14:45 10/24/07 Wed
    • Pamelalass, I been trying for ages to get my brat to read the Private Matter. He told me to call when the movie comes out. >>>> -- MelvaT, 21:58:58 10/24/07 Wed
      • I felt John's physical reaction to the argument to be an act of punishment to himself, in reaction to the energy released but to his own remarks. Fighting gives ye a terrible cockstand, after all. I think it was tension more than arousal that compelled it. (NT) -- kgp, 05:29:27 10/25/07 Thu
      • "someone who absorbs life's waves and rides 'em." Beautiful Melva! (NT) -- Jane, 06:12:39 10/25/07 Thu
      • Does that make sense?! Please! I am in awe of your eloquence and passion here -- and your posts are always as clever and witty as the man we're all gathering here to converse about. And as usual, you've zeroed in on the things I've been trying to figure out too. >>>> -- pamelalass, 06:50:58 10/25/07 Thu
  • Very nice, Mel! You make very good points and really delved into this one! I'd also felt a bit dissatisfied with my take on this quote. That's part of why I chose it. Hoser insights can be so helpful and enlightening. I think I've got a better handle on this now. I also agree with the observations that there are different types of love. I don't doubt that what LJG feels for Percy is love. It's just not that enduring love shared by soulmates of which blockbuster movies and best-selling novels are made. I'm still chuckling over your harmony.com comment, too. *G* (NT) -- Lady Jay, 19:17:37 10/24/07 Wed