Hi Karen, and thank you so much for re-posting your wonderfully insightful comments here! The way this scene both echoes and re-imagines the Ardsmuir flogging sequence is quite powerful. >>>more inside >>> -- LJG Discussion board

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Date Posted: 08:47:18 09/09/07 Sun
Author:

pamelalass
Subject: Hi Karen, and thank you so much for re-posting your wonderfully insightful comments here! The way this scene both echoes and re-imagines the Ardsmuir flogging sequence is quite powerful. >>>more inside >>>
In reply to: Karen 's message, "I think you're referring to my post on the Compuserve board yesterday. I didn't get a response from Diana but I would be happy to talk about it here (more inside >>>>>>>>>>>)" on 07:50:19 09/09/07 Sun

The original scene seems to me to be so much about Jamie's anger and sense of isolation - - we once talked on the Books board about his choice to take the beating as a form of penance for his own temptation to the friendship with John, just because he is so lacking in human warmth and companionship, as well as, of course, a way of expressing his rage and distancing himself from John after the unwanted sexual advance. But the new scene allows us to see how much rage and loneliness are caught up in John's memories of the Ardsmuir incident. It's not 'til much later that they can actually be friends, but in fact I think one thing they really have in common is the isolation imposed by being leaders of men. They really need each other, as peers, in order to have a friendship of equals, though this will not be possible for quite some time after the events depicted in BOTB.

I wonder if John's sexual fantasy related to his memory of Jamie's flogging, and the transference to a real and sexually charged interaction with Percy, is something he must meet head on in order to begin to exorcise the desire for Jamie that he knows can never be fulfilled. At Ardsmuir, I felt that underneath all the tensions, they both sensed that they could have been good friends had they met in other circumstances. In this book, it's harder to see that, as the early years at Helwater may in fact be the nadir of their relationship. Jamie is more hostile than I remember him being in the VOYAGER sequences about Helwater, but perhaps that is because those chapters focused more on the later years and his time with Willie.

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Replies:

I think you're right that they do need each other, though they won't realize it until they manage to establish a relationship without all the sexual overtones. I agree that Jamie seems much more hostile in this book than in VOYAGER, but then, he's probably at the lowest point of his life since Culloden. Yes, he's a leader of men, and Lord John has taken that away from him, by separating him from the other Ardsmuir men. It's no wonder that he feels a lot of anger and resentment toward John. It will be really interesting to see how all this is resolved, eventually, in SCOTTISH PRISONER. (NT) -- Karen, 09:03:33 09/09/07 Sun
- What a treat it is to get the "blanks" filled in for us, regardless of the fact that it is drawn out a bit (thereby enhancing our anticipation!) Not only is DG excellent at her craft, but she is so generous to give us more and more of these characters. Yes; now I am *truly* citing the obvious. (NT) -- teddie, 09:16:14 09/09/07 Sun
  - Oh, I can't believe this fun discussion is underway and my DDs are running wild all over the place, stuck inside on this rainy Sunday! I will try to convey this next thought briefly, though I may have to come back to articulate it more coherently. >>> -- pamelalass, 09:47:12 09/09/07 Sun
    - I agree herself has set herself up for a big job in working all this out in The Scottish Prisoner, but we all know from experience that she is up for the task! Just for the folks who might not have seen the link I posted yesterday, you might want to look at what Diana wrote a while back that might help shed some light on her thoughts about this relationship http://community.compuserve.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?msg=50820.3&nav=messages&webtag=ws-books&redirCnt=1 (NT) -- Jane, 11:24:23 09/09/07 Sun
    - I am so sad I missed this fascinating conversation! I am so glad that I wandered back to the LOL boards- I have always wished that I had people to discuss books (these in particular, or any in general) with the way you all are discussing them! (NT) -- Oleander, 13:18:56 09/10/07 Mon
  - Teddie, I also have a question for you I was going to email >>>> -- pamelalass, 11:53:18 09/09/07 Sun

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