Re: My $0.01 and the rest of the story -- Fortune Bay Expeditionary Team Campfire

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Subject:

Re: My $0.01 and the rest of the story

Author:
Pathfinder

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Date Posted: 23:16:36 08/01/05 Mon
In reply to: Government 's message, "My $0.02" on 13:32:33 08/01/05 Mon

After reading Government's lengthy and "textbook" sea kayaking symposium presentation (I felt like I was listening to one of those new ACA kayak instructors), here is the rest of the story from someone that has done enough kayaking to be bored with it.

Government has seemed to have gone to the dark side as far as kayaking goes (or only the best gear will do side);-), I find he may be too serious about it. Much more than I.

I prefer to look at kayaking as a sport of technique and not gear. Gear will enhance your Expedition experience, but not by much. The key is what you do with the yak once you have it. And the most important thing is preference, if you like a rudder than get it, you are the only one who knows if it works for you.

I have done many years of abuse with a plastic Perception Captiva (just a little step up from a Carolina) and I got it new at a sale for $750. I have never seen a feature on another kayak that I needed, never!! I have paddle over 1,000 miles of Canadian Rivers, crossed the Mackinac Straights and all the islands, paddled PIRO, Crossed 7 miles to the Manitous in 6 footers, Crossed back 11 miles, Paddle 16 miles in open water in Green Bay and Surfed with it countless times in the Big water, been through the Soo Locks and down the St Marys river and on and on. The rudder is the best thing to have on a river, HANDS DOWN. While the Governments of the world are constantly turning into banks or having trouble eating lunch on the fly, I just cruise down river steering with my feet. But, the river is the only place I really like it. I use it on the open water only because I don't have a skeg, but I use the rudder. I have a rudder. It has never broke, and I break almost every piece of equipment out there. Government I think (2 weeks ago) didn't want to take his 16 footer in the river because it isn't as manueverable as say a 12', but I have actually successfully hit a couple of Class II-III's with it. But, I have reinforced my rudder with stainless steel bolts, lock washers, cables, etc, and I tighten and make repairs before every trip.

Drag, I'm not sure. Perhaps you may get a couple of more miles in a fortnight, but, I can keep up with almost all, and out paddle most of the "skilled" paddlers out there.

The Rec yakers government talks of are the entire FBET, and they have cheap boats, but they get the job done. If you want to squeeze a little more performance out of a Plastic or rotomolded boat, then spend a couple hundred more for a little more performance. As far as quality of parts, hogwash, you have to modify and reinforce the higher end boats too. If you want really good performance, then go with glass, they you got something, but you will also become and anal little whiner when it is time to land on the rocks with pounding 4 foot breakers (and I hate those kind of people).

The bulkheads on my boat are nothing but a failure, but every kayak's bulkheads will fail after a couple of trips down a more than Class One Rapids.

Don't buy into all the hype with the "higher" end boats. I have kayaked enough dangerous water to be considered a higher end kayaker, and I did it all in a "recreational" boat that wasn't "designed" (according to the kayak club (another name for yacht club) kayakers) to do it, but it did fine.

Now, understand I only care if my equipment can get the job done. All this detailed talk about this and that is just noise to me. But kayakers have HUGE EGOs and like to talk, talk, talk. I like to paddle, and I like to paddle the big snot while the kayak clubs are in the restaurant looking at the water telling war stories. Government is the same way, he is out in the snot with me, so he does speak from experience, but I fear he may actually listen to the symposium hype that he goes to. (now Government, before this becomes a throw down, understand that it is nothing personal, just another opinion, although I have a knack for making everything sound personal, don�t I.;-)

I�m a cheap bastard too, so I just stick with one kayak for everything, and not this crazy boat trading exchange that most get into. The most important thing to me is to get what your comfortable with and then PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. The only thing that will make a difference in kayaking is not your gear, but your technique. When your rudder breaks or your Carbon Fiber paddle(they break easy on trips too) breaks and the waves are 6 foot and crossing each other trying to get to you and then lightening streaks in all directions, then there are only three things that matter. They are technique, endurance and character. And as the most recent trip showed, if you�re missing any of these, you�ll just camp for a few days, then paddle back. How do you get technique, endurance and character, by doing! and doing it more than everybody else!

Government is right in what he says, but I suggest that what he talks about actually matters little, and that's just my penny on the subject. But hey, I retired from open water kayaking, so I�m officially out of the loop. (and after knowing some of the more popular sea kayakers out there, thank god.)

Like the old third generation mariners out there will tell you, "All this new crap on the market with it's details and design featurs is just the best way to sell an expensive product." We can caught as many fish with the old stuff, ya just gotta know how to use it."

That's probably 'nuff said.

www.naturallysuperior.com - In the fall, they sell all their gear for pretty cheap. All Prices are Canadian, and they may deliver if you ask nice enough. They are higher end yaks and some come with rudders. There is a link on the main page.

>I�ve been through this "look for a cheap sea kayak"
>game twice in the last year. As background, I�m an
>extremely cheap bastard who likes to own nice toys.
>Ask around. Most recently (Sunday), I bought a
>Hurricane Tracer, 16.5 ft, for my girlfriend. I got it
>from Bruce at Quiet Water Kayaking. It's the new
>snazzy Trylon plastic that looks/acts like fiberglass,
>but is actually as light or lighter. The boat weighs
>~46 pounds. I got him down to $1000 w/ a nice paddle
>(~$250 + shipping for the paddle anywhere else). He
>has 2 or 3 more he's trying to unload. And 9/1 he
>unloads his entire inventory of boats & gear. I
>wouldn't offer anything over $800 or pay anything over
>$850. But be warned, the boat is pretty darn unstable.
>I actually went over accidentally while playing w/ it,
>the first time that has ever happened. If you load it
>down it gets stable quickly though. I'm 5'10" and the
>thigh braces weren't even close to the right place for
>me. My girlfriend is 5'0" and she says they're just
>right for her. Even though she�s on the
>�novice/recreational� side of things, she didn't mind
>the stability, possibly because her center of gravity
>is much lower than mine. The boat is super fast,
>something she loved.
>
>I'd seriously reconsider your wish for a rudder. While
>they will help you turn faster, a well designed sea
>kayak is designed to turn simply by leaning one way or
>another and they generally use a skeg to go straight
>in cross winds. It�s actually frightening how sharp I
>can turn my boat using a couple really easy to learn
>tricks. I've rarely (ok, never) found a legitimate
>need for a rudder. Also, you say you're in this for
>the fitness angle. That probably means you'll be
>paddling hard. Which means you'll find it very nice to
>push off your pegs to get leverage on the paddle. If
>you have a rudder not only do you not have a firm
>platform to push on, you'll zig zag while you paddle
>if you do try to push off of the pegs. BTW, all that
>steering w/ the rudder creates a fair bit of drag,
>slowing you down. I've seen rudders break on trips
>before, and it seems like the ones on my friend's
>boats are always getting in the way, in one case
>dinging a car pretty good. Rudders are good if you
>just want to putt around or don�t have a boat that
>turns very easy, but they do come at a price.
>
>I'd also caution you against buying anything remotely
>close to "recreational". In other words, avoid Dagger
>& Perception, especially the Carolina. Not that
>they�re bad boats, per se, but they tend to cater to
>the rec crowd and they certainly lack some of the
>�features� that other brands have to offer. Some of
>their boats are actually really good for the casual
>paddler. But you used the terms �fitness�, �tripping�,
>and most importantly, �sea kayak�. Smaller brands are
>usually crazy expensive, but they can be had cheaply
>if you�re savy & patient. I've never regretted getting
>a more advanced design. I always try to go as good as
>I can afford, which usually ain�t much. It can be done
>surprisingly cheap. I have a Valley Skerry Rotomolded.
>I got it from Ron at Black Parrot Paddling & it was a
>practically mint condition "lesson" boat. I scored it
>for $700 (MSRP ~$1500), including a free learn-to-roll
>class. While this design isn�t the best in the world,
>it�s damn good, and it was $700. BTW, Valley is an
>outstanding brand & will be the first brand I look at
>when/if I ever upgrade my Skerry.
>
>The best place to find used boats is on paddling.net.
>They also have unbelievably good reviews from hundreds
>(or thousands) of other paddlers who have actually
>owned the boats. It�s the best paddling resource on
>the �net. I�ve found that the best condition, lowest
>price, easiest to negotiate for kayaks come from
>companies doing outfitting, guiding, or lessons. (ONE
>EXCEPTION: Bill & Paul�s in Grand Rapids is the single
>worst company I�ve ever dealt with. Don�t get me
>started�). Keep in mind these companies don�t pay
>anywhere near retail for their boats in the first
>place.
>
>
>My $0.02
>- Avoid Recreational Boats like the Plague, it's not
>worth saving $100-200
>- Go for a Skeg over a Rudder
>- Be patient & look for deals, you can do this for
>~$850 summer/$700 winter

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Replies:

Subject	Author	Date
Kayak throw down	Government	12:06:20 08/02/05 Tue
Re: Kayak throw down -- Pathfinder, 17:13:14 08/03/05 Wed