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Date Posted: 10:42:24 12/04/05 Sun
Author: H - 20 Sep 2005
Subject: Re: Man calls off search for Self after 38 yrs
In reply to: d - 19 Sep 2005 's message, "Re: Man calls off search for Self after 38 yrs" on 10:40:30 12/04/05 Sun

I believe most of us - and many yogis as well - can only talk about realization from their own understanding or the way they got there. Yogis like Nisargadatta, but also Ramdas and Ramana followed one single avenue and later made use of that personal background when they tried to give explanations to others. Other yogis, like Ramakrishna and Aurobindo approached realization from various angles, and hence their grasp on spiritual matters is sharper - but I doubt that this will make it more comprehensible for devotees. Aurobindo btw generally did not encourage devotees to read his writings or those of others. For some people it is good to know about milestones, for others it isn't. But what it does is to occupy the mind.



In Kriya Yoga, and Raja Yoga in general, realization is attained by stages - Yogananda has written about this extensively. This may be different in other paths, particularly Jnana, but also Bhakti which in its pure form apparently does not care for stages.



Here are some talks of Swami Ramdas. They are much in line with what you were just pointing to.



I have trust in all sincere teachers including Nisargadatta and Ramdas, but there also other teachings at least equally authoritative (like the Upanishads or the sayings of Sri Ramakrishna) who entertain different or more many-faceted approaches, and what is the one and ultimate aim of one lineage is an early step for the other. This is evident e.g. in what I quoted from the Varaha Upanishad. Studying the various Upanishads one is likely to get confused, because they do not offer a uniform teaching; there are some general lines, but also many discrepancies, and also many phrases that are hard to understand or unintelligible or symbolical.



For Ramdas his breakthrough and realization was the ecstatic attaining of Nirvikalpa Samadhi/realization of Atman/annihilation of Ego which happened early in his Sadhana; nevertheless he later described this as the first step - but the decisive one, the one thing to attain; when talking or teaching he is concerned about the progress of people approaching him, not metaphysics. (Sometimes he seemingly teaches the opposite of what he had said previously on other occasions.) Aurobindo also wrote that there is something special, incomparable about that first breakthrough, and that it is equal to the liberation of the mind. And that is the object of most people who enquire about yoga, people asking questions.



What they really want, is help, and the replies they receive are in accordance with their needs. The Upanishads are somehow different because they are scriptures, not individual instruction. They are impartial. Same with Aurobindo, and some others. But generally utterances of yogis (i.e. Gurus) seem to me pointing to something rather than putting things in the right order or proper place. They are not interested in that, and maybe this is so because it is not found necessary for people who strive for realization. It is metaphysical truth, not individual help, except for those who get mad about Vedantic books -- but Anandamayee Ma remarked that even this can lead to realization.



H



----------------------





Devotee: The Self is said to be covered by five sheaths or koshas. A person has to surpass these, one after the other.



Papa: Who has got these sheaths you speak of? Atman? Jiva, they say, is Brahman, and who has got then these sheaths? Ramdas does not see any sheaths anywhere. Only Atman is there, and Atman is everything. Tattvas, koshas, bhumikas: these have no meaning if you look at them in the light of the Atman. They seem to have no existence except in the imagination of man. Atman alone exists, and everything is Atman. The koshas also must be Atman, if there are any koshas at all. Everything that is and is not is Atman. Then, where does the question lead us to? It leads us to Him who alone exists. Otherwise it is only a talk about the stages of spiritual progress. But there are no stages. That is a matter for discussion or quoting scriptures. Sri Sankara has composed a song in which he says:



"I am neither merit nor sin, I am neither happiness nor misery, ...I am Shiva, I am Shiva, of the nature of Absolute Consciousness and Bliss."



Why should you go astray from that centre and wander about wool-gathering? Go to the centre. Get fixed up there. Why should you go around on the circumference? The centre is the Truth or Reality. Let us think, talk, act, all in terms of the Atman, in the light of the Atman, identifying everything with Him. That was how Ramdas was taught by Ram. Whenever he spoke of anybody or anything, he would add 'Ram' as the suffix. Whatever object you think of, is indeed He. Because there is nothing but He.



Let the mind work on those lines until the mind itself is transformed into He. Mind is He, words are He, you are He, I am He, everybody is He. How wonderful to conceive of things in this manner!



Socrates says, "To know that you do not know anything is knowledge." So not to know and to know means the same thing. In the ultimate realization there is neither knowledge nor ignorance. There is only Atman, Truth or God. Then who is to know whom? That you know means you do not know. You have to rise above knowledge and ignorance. They have no significance for you. They say that temporarily knowledge may have value in order to destroy ignorance. Thereafter knowledge is of no use. Triputi - Knower, knowing and knowledge - disappears when the Atman is realized.



Let us not talk about the Atman because we cannot say anything about it. Leave it alone. Let us talk of diversity, on the plane of Prakriti, and that for the purpose of Lila. In that you will see diversity, all apparent. Because Prakriti is appearance, manifestation.



You can say what Atman is not, not what it is. You say, "I have realized God." The moment you realize God, 'I-ness' disappears, or when 'I-ness' disappears, you realize God. Then who is to say, "I have realized God?" There is none. You cannot even utter, "Atman is." Who is to say, "Atman is?" That is why we cannot speak about it.



-- Swami Ramdas, God-Experience, Vol.II, pp. 2-3





Devotee: Can different stages in spiritual growth be marked?



Papa: They say there are seven Bhumikas or stages. Ramdas had no time to study these things. He rushed to the goal like a rocket. His one thought was God. He was mad of God's Name. Ramdas tries to explain these things but finds it difficult. In fact, he had no time to watch any stages in his progress.



-- Swami Ramdas, God-Experience, Vol.II, p. 75





Devotee: Kindly tell us how we can overcome the false ego-sense in stages.



Papa: Stages are false. When you light a match, darkness goes and light comes at once. Does darkness go by stages? No.



Devotee: Are we capable of such an instant change from darkness to light?



Papa: Yes, you are capable. But you do not light the match.



Devotee: Why am I so stupid as to have the match-box in hand and yet walk in darkness?



Papa: You do not wish to have light.



Devotee: I wish to have light.



Papa: Then, why you do not light the match, you alone know. How can Ramdas speak for you? There is a beautiful song which says, "We have come to love darkness and we remain in darkness." If you do not want darkness, light will surely come. You have fallen in love with darkness which is self-created. If you feel sincerely that you should be free from darkness, you can be free.



Devotee: I think I cannot, unless I am helped.



Papa: Ramdas has been showing the way how to remove it. He himself removed the veil he had put on himself. The same method he has told you several times. If you employ it, you can remove the veil yourself. Ramdas did not ask his Guru to remove the veil. He followed the technique shown to him. [...]



-- Swami Ramdas, God-Experience, Vol.II, pp. 124-25

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