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Date Posted: 10:16:53 05/30/07 Wed
Author: Graham Cox (misguided agendas,,, hmm.)
Subject: Freedom of choice? Under Labour? Under Socialism?
In reply to: Samir 's message, "Re: It's not about being fluent, integration is only possible through effective communication." on 12:20:48 05/29/07 Tue

“Hello Graham,

I disagrre with you on your point, there is nothing wrong with the same groups of people living together or hanging around together. This is very natural for obvious reasons( having things in common, religious ties, heritage etc..). If you talking about ghettos just go to India and see the English choosing to live in their own compounds separate from the local Indian population. This is a very common thing in places like Delhi and Mumbai. Noty just the English do this but westeners in generallike americans and scottish etc. The law doesnt tell them that everyone has to live in an Indian area miles away from other people of his/her culture. They have the right as do we in this country to live where we want. It is natural that most people live with people who have similarities with them, like culture, heritage, religion, interests etc. I dont really like the usage of the word ghetto that you used, because you are suggesting that asian areas are poor, but the reality is a lot of them are not. A lot of them are thriving areas and which have a lot of profit making businesses. I think you should give the asian community more credit than you do. Not just you but the English people in general should. Again it just comes down to ignorance so i understand to a certain extent why these confusions happen. The asian community is stereotyped mainly by the media and the rest of the population eat what the media feeds them. “
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Hello again Samir,
With regard to your points about certain creeds or races wishing to socialise with each other, I understand that as a preference, people will wish to “hang around” with others of same racial religious fraternity, it is more to do with familiarity than it is coldness and an unwillingness to integrate, I’m not that stupid =) … honest…

But my problem with your doctrine is that you highlighted segregational favouritism in your last post, and now you seem set on heel-turning and making out that I am in some way badgering you for a racist outburst; I am not I assure you. I simply wish to point out that a blatant refusal or unwillingness to learn a native language or indeed integrate is not effective in curing racism nor is it deemed appropriate; if you want all-Asian areas, fine, just understand then why such organisations as the BNP exist and why they mirror your views.

I also take a fair amount of your claim about “Westerners living in their own compounds” in India with a certain degree of salt, namely a few pinches, as I can see no real evidence to suggest they do it because they have no wish to commune with the indigenous inhabitants. From personal experience I can offer you quite an opposing scene, with the English ex-pats revelling in the hustle and bustle of Delhi, because in such a country, and such a culture, it would be rather idiotic for an Englishman, or westerner in general, to act in a manner disconcerting or to derogate those who would happily remove the fingers of the person responsible. You cannot base western culture and a much more modern, liberal society against a Middle-Eastern society and culture, which I know full well, has areas of outstanding beauty, but also areas where third-world hunger and malady are still rife, and peasantry and barbarism still reign. Terrorism, extremism and fundamentalism rule the roost.

It is a totally different world and should never be put into comparison with a modern western civilisation as the two so obviously collide and share little in similarity Samir, so I cast off any claims of such activity from English ex pats, as I doubt they would dare. Whats the Scots, yanks and the rest do is up to them.

As for the ghetto theory, I suggest you take a look at places such as Bradford, Oldham and areas of Birmingham, Nottingham and even Peterborough. These places have such “no go” areas, where Asian gang culture and even inter-racial war have taken place, the areas are run-down and tempers are frayed. Yes, such areas exist for whites also, and they are aptly branded as “ghettos” because they are forsaken, hellish places where entry is a damn sight easier than exit. When you truly understand the problems in such areas, you’ll realise why communication, effective integration and a sense of communal harmony is a must, and to claim that Asian only areas are fine just distances any and all hope that things will or could ever improve.

No amount of “fair play” or “rights” makes any bloody difference. You can’t promote autonomy for Asians, and cobblers to the rest.

I know some Asian guys and gals do very well for themselves, I have discussed this before, time and time again, but my problem lies with the fact that you, and others, are quick to dismiss any claims that such an Asian underclass exists, instead blaming or projecting the problem onto others, much as you have done.

The mainstream media means little to me Samir, and I can assure you that what they print is certainly not what I think. I take people at face value Samir, whatever colour they may be, and I don’t suffer fools gladly, hence the reason I tend to avoid many glossy rags or pro-socialist newscasts. I tend to rely on wits, experience and the fact that I can honestly say, I’ve seen it all! And seen it I have mate.
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“My idea of multiculturism is that the local society should embrace the different cultural group with equal social status and respect their values, and the others cultures should respect the local culture. Unfortunately a lot of the local English population has been very meen to people like the asians. I for an example have had to put up with racial discrimination all throughout my life. It is in many forms as well, from things like being called wog, Paki and Black bastard to being stopped in my tracks as far as seeking promotions in my jobs are concerned. I am fortunate enough to succeeded but just think of the many asians whove gone through the same things I have but understandably havent suceeded in life. Society favours the local populatin than the asian one. This is the reality in a lot of cases. I am not whinging if you might think i am but i am just giving you an Idea of how things are my side of the fence, I dont get insulted any more if i get racial slurs because i just pity the people who say these things. They are ignorant about a lot of things and know nothing about Pakistanis and their culture, so how can one comment if they now nothing. “
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So, your idea of multiculturalism is to embrace values such culture, religion, colour, creed, race, background, music, dance etc etc etc, but NOT language, as you don’t deem it necessary to form the basis of multicultural understanding? How is that going to work and how are respectful advances to be made when neither local group nor new arrival can make headway and both sides of the cultural fence seem unfamiliar and daunting, even frightening for some?

I in no way justify those who have called you names in the past, it is ignorant, stupid and hugely ill-mannered; but I must add that racism cuts both ways Samir, and the Politically Correct media will quickly highlight and make the utmost of any race-based crime or faux-pas, albeit primarily white on ethnic, we all know it happens, but what you must understand is that in some inner-city hellholes, where unemployment is rife, danger lurks in every street and societal relations has broken down, not only between those of differing race or colour, but also differing behavioural or educative backgrounds.

When this little melting pot reaches boiling point, a release is required by those who are stuck in the shitholes, and when that release happens….holy shit! Recent riots and the uprising of “chav” culture have shown what forsaking a society, and misinforming or making false promises to its inhabitants can do.

People don’t like change, whatever their background. Gypsies being ushered into green-belt upper-middle class areas have proved that it doesn’t have to be necessarily “council” estate based, when differing classes or cultures are pushed or imposed all of a sudden on an unsuspecting community, trouble occurs. It really is that simple.

Effective communication was not prevalent, and people were misinformed, at worst, NOT informed of the apparent changes. So who was to blame in that situation, the Gypsie travellers, the media labelled “snobs” or the local regimes and despots doing the shoving? I think we both know the answer. I don’t blame Asians for wanting to maintain their communities, and in a sense I agree that they, and we, should have a choice. But I’m afraid some of us don’t, and if we try, we get labelled by the Mainstream media, the government Marxist maniacs and yes, some apparent “representatives” of the Asian community, usually that of the Muslim community admittedly. THAT is where my problem lies.

If, using England by example, the Asian community is refusing or unwilling to learn effective communication through basic, valid exchange of the native language, then how are they seriously expecting people to adopt their cultures or respect them when they seem as distant or unwilling to participate in the game of society as those who are looked upon as racists or bigots because they do the same yet sport a whiter complexion?

There are those who will one step further and say “Why should we respect them when they don’t want to integrate with us”. What side of the fence would they sit on Samir and what colour would they be? How many people instantly imagine a white face? My point exactly. Trying to promote segregate settlements within a foreign country is wrong, especially when terrorism and Islamic fundamentalism, racism and race-hate is seen as a huge problem, yet no one dares address it. It arouses suspicion.
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“Im sorry to say again that I disagree with your logic. Why be aroused, have negativity and be suspicious of other people just because they are from a different culture or background. I dont call that embraving a another cultural group. As for what people are saying well it is none of peoples business, unless the talk is directed to them.”
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Who says I’m negative about other people? I’m only negative or suspicious of those who want their own factions, autonomy within their own division, and separate rules or guidelines to follow forsaking all others because they have a deluded view that it does no sociological harm. Why should I be forced to embrace that Samir? If I even mentioned doing such a thing in my line of work I would be sacked, my name handed to police, my children hounded at school, Marxist idiots banging on my door or posting threatening, inarticulate letters through my door, the works. I would be followed everywhere I went by patronising ponces from the Guardian elite screaming “BNP thug!” and my life made a misery; I have even been hounded by fellow Asian prior to your posting on this thread. Read it and see! It IS one rule for you, another for me Samir, and THAT I will not embrace, as it inequality, it is racist and it is disparaging. I’d rather be called a white bastard or Kaffir, that doesn’t affect my life in quite the same way… sticks and stones Samir, names won’t hurt, Marxist labels and positive discrimination however, they almost certainly will.
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“I dont believe people who live in England should be forced to speak english and i dont believe they are being prejudiced if they dont learn english. What I am promoting my friend is a simple concept called FREEDOM OF CHOICE. I have several stores that I own and i dont serve only Urdu speakers I serve anyone in the world who wishes to buy from my store, and certainly you as an Englishman would be welcome, it just seems that I dont find that many of the English want to buy from my stores. I wonder why that is?
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Wonder why that is? It can be a few things Samir; one, your stores are based in almost exclusively all-Asian areas, that will put some English people off; primarily because, as was stated earlier, there are certain “no go” areas for whites and indeed Asians, and you may not realise that your shop could well be based in an area of such. Youth culture is dominated by such things, and an apparent lack of young English white males entering your store could well be the result of a local Asian gang unwilling to allow white lads anywhere near your store. Harsh sounding, yes, realistic; most definitely! I’ve seen it happen both ways, and it is sick, sad and deplorable, yet the funny thing is, at the school gates the next day, they could all be mates again. Work that one out!

Secondly, it could be sheer ignorance I admit. But realistically, I severely doubt there could possibly be THAT many uneducated and ill-informed English people living within your store areas.

Thirdly, people may feel uneasy entering your store, a lot of time and effort is spent making English natives feel worthless, racist and loathsome by Marxist-Socialist groups, Muslim lobbyists and the Government, the result being some English people will just avoid Asian men and women like the plague, scared they will be labelled or act aloof or cold in your presence because of an apparent hypersensitivity to “racist comments or insinuation” by some Asians and self-styled “Muslim sympathisers”.

Freedom of Choice is a bastard of an expression when used the way you use it Samir; because yet again it promotes freedom for you, but coercion for me. My freedom is force fed through dogma and multl-culti rantings. My freedom of expression results in a watered-down vocabulary and a almost constant need to rehearse my script before openly saying anything, so as not to offend some Mullah who HAS to find something offensive coming from a white mans mouth, or some abhorrent intellectually-challenged socialist pig who will pick words and phrases from my statements and twist them into some incomprehensible, but almost certainly racist in their view, tirade of abuse toward anyone different to me, with regard to colour, creed, religion, race, culture, gender, sexuality, social-class, background, club, clique, hobby interest... do you get the picture?

The first and foremost means of effective communication between any people is speech. If I cannot understand what the chap in front of me is saying, how am I supposed to strike up a rapport with him, and discuss his interests or strike up friendship when he blatantly has no wish to converse with me because he is unwilling to learn even Basic English language? Would I be having this wonderful discussion with you if you were not able to type very good English?

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“As for the point that you suggested that i was tarring you with the same brush as the BNP, u know i didnt mean that. My ORIGINAL point was that you cant punish , accuse or place a law that prssurises the majority to catch the few.”
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Unfortunately you were caught in the same headlights so many have recently been dazzled with Samir; proving just how easy it is for me ‘find’ offence if I really want to. I don’t mind being called racist for not seeing eye-to-eye with some maniacal Mullah or Muppet Marxist oaf, and I certainly did not take offence at your claim, I understand that you are indeed smart enough not to label as so many others do = ) sorry for using you as an example…

As for your second point, I agree. With regard to Political correctness in this country, I believe it has placed an even larger divide between the Asian and white communities. If I really try, I can even agree that yes, you should be allowed to have your own communities, and yes, so should we (not that I budge on learning to communicate effectively, so nice try! = ) ), but without the curtain or cloud of PC bigotry that stops us from naturally investigating or venturing into each others territory, and finding out for ourselves that we are not really so different and not hell-bent on destroying each other, taking the good bits of both cultures and amalgamating them to form a really rich, fruitful society.

Take us two for example, debating away like a couple of time-served MPs, yet we have never met, are of different religious and cultural backgrounds, yet strangely one and the same when it comes to promoting freedom of speech and expression, encouraging healthy debate and answering the queries we have of each other’s racial backdrop without hesitancy… it proves it can be done. Lol.

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“ I dont have a problem with the police searching people but they should have very strong reasons for doing so. They shouldnt just target asians like they have, sometimes at gun point and then after releasing them two weeks later say sorry. That is not good enough and this is not just the odd incident, it happens on a very regular basis. The police force it has been confirmed is inherintly racist, so I think getting rid of the racists would be a very good first step in gaining the trust of certain peoples. When they have done this i believe they should go about their job with very good grounds to search someone and not just because someone looks a certain way.”
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I agree that racism within the Police force is unacceptable, although the governmental approach of “positive discrimination” and the promotion of more ethnic police officers whilst turning away white faces is not only offensive, but downright deplorable! It has even been admitted that some forces across the UK are turning down many perfectly able and some brilliantly minded potential officers, to make way for less-able and in some cases disabled counterparts to fill some pathetic diversity quota. I don’t agree that it could ever be right, and to be honest, I couldn’t give a flying frig what colour the copper was, just as long as he can do his job efficiently and wants to help.

And I can assure you that they do not “just target Asians”. The diversity training for new police recruits is abominable, and can actually increase racist beliefs, but the guidelines set in place ensure that no one party is effected more than another. The police in this country don’t carry guns by default Samir, and can only get their hands on them in a genuine case of emergency or if a genuine threat of violence is apparent, so quite how you paint these pictures of fascist police brandishing guns and arresting Asians for breathing is pure fairytale mate, its crap. Terrorists are a problem, and if the Muslim community was eager to stop it, it would do more to expose extremists within their boundaries.

When I say I am suspicious of Asian communities wishing to be autonomous, having their own stores, their own areas, their own this and that, it means I question why they want them, yet don’t seem to want to expose the bad apples in their carts, the bad within the bunch, and makes me suspicious that some use this cloak of promoted autonomy to HIDE those who could be a potential threat. That is why I feel that effective communication and a willingness to learn basic English is essential. Why come to live here if you don’t like what you are coming to, or don’t want to integrate into a large western society?

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“As far as changing the law, i believe that not being able to speak a language should not be an excuse to break the law or get people off the hook. Like you know the law is available in many languages and there isnt an excuse to plead ignorance. It is a simple solution really.”
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It is, but some DO use it as an excuse. There will always be those who wish to try their luck, just as the indigenous English have their louts and idiots who use their said stupidity as an excuse, I even know of one chap who claimed disability benefit and got a mobility car on the pretence that he couldn’t read and write, society had branded him as stupid and that made him a depressive. Was he really an idiot? No he certainly was not. People like that need exposing, but unfortunately for people like you and me Samir, we get human rights legislation, Socialist dogma and infuriating sympathy for people who are seen as the underdog, whilst we are usually left to rot, either at the hands of political correctness and flagrant liberalist meddling, or at the hands of loutish, bigoted morons and media enhanced hype.

The solution is simple, but the implementation will take the removal of ten years of socialist Labour domineering and a return to common sense.

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“As for your next point i think that we have already agreed that you should have your right to claim your pride in your heritage and wave your little white flag with the red cross on it. You can go out on the streets and shout ENGLAND, ENGLAND and it wont bother me so i dont know why you are going on about it. We have already said that all people should should have the right to celebrate their culture and heritage. end of story.”
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If only it was the end of it…
But you know as well as I do that some Asians do have a problem with it, some seek to find offence at almost anything considered traditionalist and some even threaten English heritage as a means to set the socialist wheels in motion. As I have stated probably five times in THIS thread, it is not only the Asians who do it, not only the ethnic minority as a clique do it, it is also screeching, tin-pot Hitlers from the socialist unions that do it, inferior feeling and self-loathing bloc groups such as the dreaded and rather unkempt UAF that do it.

“You can go out on the streets and shout ENGLAND, ENGLAND and it wont bother me so i dont know why you are going on about it.” It may be just the power of print but I do detect a little odium there Samir.

The St Georges cross is something I find heart-warming, pride-inducing and nostalgia producing; your stereotyping of a typical English football hooligan waving it and jeering makes you come across as nothing less than a dogmatic fucking idiot, and when you preach of stereotypes and badmouthing of Asians you need to remember not to shoot yourself in the foot.

It would be a little like me accusing you of being a terrorist because you happened to wave a Pakistani flag at the cricket. Careful…

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“As for the ghurka it is unfortunate but thats something you should write to the governmant about if you feel strongly about it. It makes me laugh haha when you accuse me of getting prickly when i have said several times now that quote"i dont think you are racist'. So dont try and portray me as something i am not, i dont think you are racist once again i think you are just a person with a misguided agenda. Indeed dont put words into my mouth by saying i promote racism when i dont do or have never said such a thing. I condemn racism , so dont accuse me of promoting it just to get your own way and win the argument.”
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Hmm, proved a point though didnt he?

Anyway...Promoting segregation, trying to bound me over with one right for Asians, another for you, IS racist Samir, if I said to you, “Fuck the Asians, keep ‘em all in their own little communities and we’ll oppress them with political correctness, we want our whites only areas , we aint doin no harm to no one.” I’d sound like a right bastard. However, when you do it, it’s all OK in camp Galloway.

I don’t accuse you of being outwardly racist, if you were, I wouldn’t waste my time discussing with you the problems regarding a failure to learn basic language when entering a foreign country to take residency, but I just take grasp of your claims of a “misguided agenda” and laugh back at you for trying to imply that I am lampooning you or trying to expose you as a horrible, racially prejudiced Asian thug. I just question your ethics and ponder WHY you really want Asian only areas yet at the same time wish to integrate successfully into British society, yet you wonder why English patrons don’t enter your stores yet you promote Asian self-rule and encourage new-arrivals not to learn the language! It seems a bit mixed and matched for me to feel comfortable Samir, and being a rather curious person you know…


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“What doesnt seem right to you is your problem, speaking a language should not be forced on people, simple as really.
Well if you suggest that the english see people of other cultures who dont speak english then surely the problem is with those english who dont give people the benefit of the doubt. I fail to see the correlation really. There could just as well be an asian who speaks english and yet upto no good. there could also be an asian who talks to people but talks rubbish. You are just making a small issue into a big one. If i didnt speak english i would be as nice and kind as i am to people. It woulnt make a difference to my personality and therefore there wouldnt be any problems and if people wanted to say im up to no good or that i am a terrorist just for that reason than the problem is theirs and not mine. U can use colourful language like abhorrant all you like but the reality is that most people who dont speak english in this country are not abhorrant.”
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It isn’t just my problem, that’s ludicrous! It is a nationwide problem that cannot be seriously addressed without the need for interpreters, and that to me stands in the way of democratic rule for example, because how are these people supposed to vote for a governing party when they don’t understand the manifesto, or when it is presented to them in a language they know, are they supposed to then compare that manifesto with the state of the nation and its issues? What you have is essentially a guaranteed vote for whatever party rules at the time of entry, and anyone with an IQ in even double figures should be able to work out why.

It is not solely about character, or attitude, yes there are terrorists who speak perfect English, Asians who cant speak English yet may be perfectly friendly, loving and cultured souls, BUT, if they then enter a foreign country to LIVE, and then REFUSE to learn to native tongue to form the basis of effective communication with said locals, that makes me question WHY they seek residence in this country, WHY they wanted to come here if they have no wish to integrate? That then plays into the hands of people such as the BNP, who will then preach to me; “It’s because they want our benefits, houses and jobs!” See how it all moulds together Samir? Some people believe it, and extremism is born!

It is abhorrent IN MY VIEW to enter a country and snub learning the language. It shows that you have no interest in your resident country and as such shows little decorum, WHEREVER you’re from, and WHEREVER you’re going!

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“This is not a very big issue indeed. It is only a very big issue indeed for those who want language forced upon people. Choosing to mix mainly with peopple of a similar culture is not racist GEORGE. bEING DEROGATORY TO PEOPLE OF OTHER CULTURES IS. Indeed I resent the fact that you suggest that asians put a facade of politeness which we certainly dont do. Stop trying to demonise asians.”
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And to think I was starting to like you! = )
I am NOT demonising Asians, if I wanted to do that I would simply sit here chanting “terrorist bastards, send em all ‘ome” wouldn’t I? Have I? I simply wish to enquire why you think my language is unimportant yet you wish for integration to be prevalent, with no basis to form a bond between peoples.

I know the true meaning of the WORD racism Samir, as do you obviously, but is that the new view of it, or the dictionary explanation? My point is that there is much much more now that can be regarded as racist, not just derogatory speech or actions pertaining to those of differing race, but also regarding religious hatred, questions/enquiries/thoughts proposed to be anti-Islamic, extremist right-wing views (left-wing extremism is fine), failure to agree with a socialist bigot, daring to question Labour immigration policy, trying to protect your heritage if you’re white, not employing enough blacks and Asians to fill a quota, comically (not derogatorily) impersonating an ethnic minority figure (but the film white chicks was fine, no derogatory stereotyping there, nor was “going for an English”, on Goodness Gracious Me), calling someone a “poppadum” on crap reality show (although white trash, and “those people” {providing it is an ethnic person that says it} is fine and dandy), daring to read anything other than the Guardian, the list is bloody near endless Samir.

Graham by the way…

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“Facial expression usually tells you whether someone likes you or not or is pleased with you or not.”
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Rubbish; so sneering, grinning piss-takingly or smiling, and saying something alien to the listener should be taken as signs of affection or liking from people then? I think we both know the problem with this claim Samir…

There is no substitute for same-language communication, what about humour or differences in cultural expression?

What may seem funny to one person almost certainly could cause serious offence or worse for the other, and if they cannot talk their way out of a potential bout of fisticuffs, what then, just let them get on with it? Isn’t that how mass fights or riots sometimes start?

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We already have all white areas and yes if people choose to live like that they can, it is their chice. If they want to mix with asians that is their choice as well. Either way they can choose because it is called freedom of choice and i wouldnt forc the whites as you put it to live anywhere they didnt. Most whites choose not to live with asians probably because they prefer to live with people of a similar culture to them (You see how imm giving them the benefit of the doubt) otherwise taking a leaf from your way of thinking id accuse them of being racist and thats why they dont choose in asian areas. But I dont take that aggressive stance george.
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And yet you call ME misguided? Yes, there are those who would prefer to live “amongst their own”, obviously, and yes, if that is their choice fine, NOT racist, but sensible. HOWEVER, a recent look at events shows that it is not so “free” as you like to put it. What about the Police headquarters that was moved because the area was “hideously white”? Greg Dyke calling the BBC “still hideously white after 6 years”… so I’m afraid that freedom to promote your own kind and a showy display of “its ok, be proud of who you are” only rings true if you are an ethnic. You can take that as racist if you see fit, I don’t care, I’m not being derogatory, but some of our peers are, and their doing it to ME, not you. You are ALLOWED to think and act the way you do, you CAN say that, you CAN promote all-Asian areas, but my argument is, if I did the same, I would be some serious fucking trouble. IS THAT FREEDOM OF CHOICE Samir? Is that Freedom in general?

I won’t repeat myself over my views regarding language, everyone knows them by now…

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Yes i said there will never be room
>for the BNP because the BNP are a racist organisation that favours whites abd talks of repatriation. They are racist to people of colour.
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The NBPA is a racist organisation, as it promotes black police officers, and doesn’t do anything for white officers; in fact, it called for all-asian forces in all-asian areas. Then, under your same claim, THAT is racist. The Muslim Council of Britain favours Muslims over everyone else, and with the new “Islamic Racism” claims (yes, how pathetic, never knew Islam was a race), they can now be looked upon as a racist organisation as it favours the rights of one faction or creed over another. I can throw dozens of those your way too Samir, there are political parties that favour Asians, and call for Muslim rule; there are some organisations that seek to enforce Sharia Law. These organisations are racist, fascist or oppressive also.

The BNP are racist, yes, but will gain ground when people such as yourself promote the view that it is OK to shun native languages in favour of “communities”, snub indigenous national heritage but place pride in your own, because by doing so, you are giving them exactly the fuel they need to fire up the indigenous peoples’ suspicion, which in turn stems frustration at the mainstream parties for not tackling issues such as mass immigration and ethnic crime, and therefore breeding hatred of other religions, races and cultures through propaganda and highlighting of ethnically-perpetrated wrongdoings.

Mind you, don’t Labour, the Respect (HA!) Coalition, and other trade-unionist run, socialist/communist arseholes work toward the same results, only in the opposite direction?

Graham Cox.

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