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Date Posted: 12:20:48 05/29/07 Tue
Author: Samir
Subject: Re: It's not about being fluent, integration is only possible through effective communication.
In reply to: Graham Cox 's message, "It's not about being fluent, integration is only possible through effective communication." on 03:14:12 05/28/07 Mon

>“First of all a large quantity of English people who
>go and live overseas do not bother to learn the local
>language from my experience. Their excuse is usually
>because English is an international language why
>bother learning it. To be honest I think they have a
>point and they have a right to do so and not be forced
>to learn a language if they dont wish to.”
>-------------------------------------------------------
>-------------
>
>Hello again Samir, thank you for your correspondence.
>It is GRAHAM by the way = ).
>The problem I have with your claim is I’m afraid in
>some countries that the English AND others of
>differing nations, cultures and creeds supposedly
>flock to, it is ESSENTIAL to learn the language, and
>in several countries, a requirement if you are looking
>to stay for any prolonged period. Be it right or wrong
>in your view, it is put in place to stop not only
>confusion, but also to actively demote any segregate
>behaviour; such communalist behaviour and apparent
>“freedoms” thus result in ghettos or pockets of
>particular races, religions or sects, as we already
>have here. That is NOT what I would call diversity or
>Multiculturalism Samir, and neither is it acceptable
>in a modern, supposedly integrated society.
>
>I am not supposing that anyone entering anywhere
>should learn the language fluently, but ENOUGH to make
>communication easy for the indigenous populate of the
>country you wish to emigrate to, so as not to arouse
>suspicion or negativity about what the unfamiliar
>investiture “could” be saying.
>
>By claiming that it is OK for people to speak their
>own language in a foreign country whilst making NO
>effort at all to learn the dialect “if they don’t want
>to” is somewhat prejudiced my friend, as it would
>appear that you promote self-serving within a racial
>partition, putting it bluntly, by example if you want
>to serve solely Urdu speaking people in solely Urdu
>speaking stores and other businesses, you are
>promoting racism under Marxist dogma Samir, and my
>argument is, if I openly floated such ideas, I would
>be prosecuted, persecuted and damn near executed for
>daring to suggest such a thing. So why are you allowed
>to?
>-------------------------------------------------------
>------------------------
>“Talking about unscrupulous immigrants and ethnic
>minorities, yes i agree with you they should be
>punished. But you cannot tar all people who do not
>want to speak english with the same brush, rather the
>law needs to be altered and a better one found to
>solve the problems you have mentioned above.”
>-------------------------------------------------------
>-----------------------------
>
>I never claimed you were ALL aggressively using
>foreign language as an excuse did I? Don’t tar ME with
>the same brush you tar the average BNP supporter with
>just because I may take opposition to your views. And
>the laws in place I’m afraid almost encourage this
>behaviour, again down to political correctness and a
>failure by those in power to do anything right,
>twinned with hypersensitivity to oppression and
>“dogmatic racism” by “certain” groups. = )
>
>Yesterday’s news proved that…
>
>By such if the Police wish to stop ANYONE with regard
>to anti-terrorism or whatever, they should be allowed
>to without question. After all, it is their job to
>protect and serve, and if you have nothing to hide,
>why are you afraid of being searched? It isn’t
>oppression, and to be perfectly honest, if moderate
>Muslims oppose acts of terrorism within their own
>flock, and I’m sure they do, why wouldn’t they right?
>Then, why don’t they stand up and be counted? Why sit
>on the fence to cry “oppression” when they have
>nothing to hide? Why aren’t they jumping up and down
>crying “good, we hate terrorists, arrest them all!”??
>
>It is NOT domineering to wish to search for explosives
>on anyone when such acts take place every day, killing
>thousands of innocent people, and the world surely and
>most definitely has been touched by the cancer of
>malignant Islamic fundamentalism in recent years, it
>has spread ferociously.
>
>If Muslims therefore condemn actively searching for
>terrorists, how can they then claim to oppose their
>albeit “explosive” actions?
>
>However, when you claim such laws should be changed,
>what suggestions would you make in light of events
>like this, where foreign language IS often used to
>present a palette of ignorance to UK laws and a
>“misunderstanding” of its rules and regulations?
>-------------------------------------------------------
>-------------------------------------------------------
> “I Certainly will never drop the PAKISTANI bit as you
>put it and i am frankly quite amazed that you would
>suggest that, like you said this is Multicultural
>Britain a Britain with many cultures Pakistanis being
>one of them! What you are suggesting is that we drop
>who we are and forget our heritage, a heritage that is
>one of the most rich in the world. We are first and
>foremost pakistani muslims, then british and there is
>nothing wrong with that and i dont think many of you
>english realise this. I dont believe at all that you
>are racist but just a little bit not informed.”
>-------------------------------------------------------
>--------------------------
>
>Do I honestly come across as being misinformed Samir?
>If I was so ill-informed that I didn’t understand why
>you feel proud of your heritage and culture, why did I
>question you regarding my right to do the same?
>
>What I “realise” Samir is that when an Englishman
>promotes Englishness, a screaming, chanting noise is
>heard, from the ‘Left side of the great divide’, and
>unfortunately, there are a number of ethnically
>charged “quangos” and organisations ready to cry for
>the abolition of anything English, in favour of this
>liquidised “diversity” claim that appears to have
>somewhat poisoned any real chance of multiracial
>harmoniousness in modern Britain, due to meddling and
>a flagrant disregard of the indigenous populate. It
>all accounts to favouritism Samir, and THAT is why
>Britain has a burgeoning Nationalist or
>“Traditionalist” in the better sense of the word,
>uprising in this country at the moment.
>But I would be quick to question your perception
>Samir, because I would be steadfast to point out that
>the vision of a white, BNP loving thug with a skinhead
>is NOT what I am trying to portray, but for arguments
>sake, say, an elderly war veteran, or, as the news
>again has so rightly shone light, an elderly Ghurkha
>war veteran, who has been refused entry into Britain
>for “not having ties with this country”, despite
>fighting for her shores during WW2, whilst countless
>pathetic socialist groups and ill-educated liberal
>entities fight for the right of countless asylum
>claimants or benefit/NHS tourists who REALLY have no
>“direct ties” with Britain.
>
>-------------------------------------------------------
>-------------------------------------------------------
>------
>“you are probably right, but dont have ago at me about
>it. I think you are well within your rights to say all
>of what you have just said as long as you dont be
>racist to other cultures.”
>-------------------------------------------------------
>--------------------------
>
>Nobody is having a go Samir, and when you get prickly
>like that it proves my earlier point exactly. If
>you’re looking for excuses to point the finger and
>call me racist, do so my friend, but just bare thought
>and understand that I don’t play into the hands of
>idiotic Lib-Soc stifling. And if I recall, it was YOU
>who promoted segregation and “racist” views earlier,
>by promoting a failure or indeed a refusal to
>integrate if one chooses not to, I’m sorry, but I see
>a very important part of integration into a society
>other than your own, the ability to communicate
>effectively and a willingness to fit in.
>
>-------------------------------------------------------
>------------------------------
> “I agree with you that the do gooders are a big
>problem and they cause most of the tension between my
>people and yours. It is they who we should get rid of.
>They should allow all people to celebrate their
>culture and heritage English, Pakistani etc.
>As for spaeking a language, a person doesnt nedd to
>learn a whole language to learn the law. A person can
>be an abiding citizen without having to learn english.
>I know a few people who know the law very well but
>dont speak english, id argue that they know the law
>better than most English laymen. So I just think there
>is no need to make a big issue out of something like
>this.”
>-------------------------------------------------------
>------------------------------------
>
>I celebrate the fact that you are indeed smart enough
>to see through the cloud of PC bigotry to encourage
>the celebration of the National heritage, as well as
>that of its newfound entrants; yet again however I
>would take issue with why you with regard to learning
>language, especially as you now claim that non-English
>speaking people learn “the law” without ever speaking
>a word of English, so obviously you don’t include the
>law of ethics in your equation? And although I realise
>that English law is probably printed in a plethora of
>languages for the benefit of our non-English speaking
>guests, it somehow doesn’t appear right when presented
>to people seeking residency, who don’t want to learn
>the language, and yet again, use such pamphlets as an
>excuse that they don’t have to.
>
>It isn’t about just being an abiding citizen with
>regard to the laws of the land, and I fail to see how
>abiding can be wholly achieved when you have no wish
>to learn even the smallest of phrases to ensure a
>healthy and communicative relationship with the
>indigenous people of the country you reside in,
>especially when some of those, well-informed or not,
>will already view you as a threat be you from the East
>or West respectively, and your failure to learn the
>language even at foundation level or show a
>lackadaisical attitude at being able to communicate
>any kind of interest in societal integration will not
>assist you in becoming an “abiding citizen” morally,
>and shows those with disinterest to be abhorrent,
>whatever their colour or creed.
>
>And believe me when I tell you, most English louts you
>speak of know the law full well, it is more a question
>of whether they choose to follow it this week or not,
>and I don’t back them up in any way shape or form,
>they do not represent me, just as I would not, and
>never have, assumed that terrorists represent every
>Pakistani or Muslim person the world over. So don’t
>tar me either.
>
>A failure or unconcern/outright refusal to integrate
>even at a most basic communicative level is a very big
>issue indeed Samir.
>
>-------------------------------------------------------
>----------------------
> “As long as we are all kind and polite to each other
>we dont have to have anything forced upon us. As for
>the muslims that cause problems well they are a
>minority troubled group just like in any society and
>we need to get rid of them. We have got our own
>societys here and we dont have to speak english in our
>society. Where I live is in an asian area and most
>people speak in the south asian languages, so there is
>no need to speak english and there are no problems if
>we dont. Not being forced to learn a language is
>surely a liberty that everybody should have. For those
>who wish to learn another language good for them. By
>the way the BNP will never get into power”
>
>-------------------------------------------------------
>----------------------------------
>
>I’m sorry Samir but that constitutes racism. You
>cannot promote or indeed encourage ghettos or “areas”
>of predominantly Asian, white, black or whatever, then
>speak to me about diversity and multiculturalism, as
>you do bugger-all but contradict yourself when you
>talk like this!
>
>It IS, I repeat, IS a problem when people entering a
>country feel the way you do, that is, they wish to
>create their OWN societies, shunning others, create
>their OWN areas in a country that does not wholly
>share your language or religion, and eschew
>integration in favour of pro-ethnic autonomy and a
>taciturn attitude to outside communities, especially
>those of differing racial or religious backgrounds.
>Simply trying or putting on a facade of politeness is
>not good enough, and how am I supposed to know when
>someone is being polite when I cannot understand a
>word they are saying?
>
>You simply cannot imply that there is no problem
>providing you’re OK because “we have our own
>societies” because that my friend is racial
>discrimination! I thought you would be intelligent
>enough to realise that “positive discrimination” is
>STILL inequity, and there is nothing positive about
>it.
>
>Then you tell me that you wholeheartedly oppose
>terrorist activity yet tell me you honestly don’t
>think integration or effective communication BETWEEN
>ethnic groups is significant. That arouses suspicion
>Samir, especially when you denigrate societal
>interaction yet strangely promote Asian-only areas
>with an ill-informed sense that it is OK providing you
>do no apparent material harm outside your clique. So
>by your ideology it is OK for racist, right-wing
>extremists to endorse all-white areas providing they
>don’t call ethnics names and can be seen occasionally
>blurting out hypocrisies?
>
>And yet you proudly proclaim there will never be room
>for the BNP, yet from the same theoretic canon do you
>fire your stratagem. That’s actually quite worrying
>Samir, because I now wonder how many more feels the
>same way, and where this philosophy of “Asian
>Autonomy” is heading, and I fear that the MoD’s recent
>foretelling of civil war is but one step closer to
>becoming tomorrow’s headline…
>
>Graham Cox.

Hello Graham,

I disagrre with you on your point, there is nothing wrong with the same groups of people living together or hanging around together. This is very natural for obvious reasons( having things in common, religious ties, heritage etc..). If you talking about ghettos just go to India and see the English choosing to live in their own compounds separate from the local Indian population. This is a very common thing in places like Delhi and Mumbai. Noty just the English do this but westeners in generallike americans and scottish etc. The law doesnt tell them that everyone has to live in an Indian area miles away from other people of his/her culture. They have the right as do we in this country to live where we want. It is natural that most people live with people who have similarities with them, like culture, heritage, religion, interests etc. I dont really like the usage of the word ghetto that you used, because you are suggesting that asian areas are poor, but the reality is a lot of them are not. A lot of them are thriving areas and which have a lot of profit making businesses. I think you should give the asian community more credit than you do. Not just you but the English people in general should. Again it just comes down to ignorance so i understand to a certain extent why these confusions happen. The asian community is stereotyped mainly by the media and the rest of the population eat what the media feeds them. My idea of multiculturism is that the local society should embrace the different cultural group with equal social status and respect their values, and the others cultures should respect the local culture. Unfortunately a lot of the local English population has been very meen to people like the asians. I for an example have had to put up with racial discrimination all throughout my life. It is in many forms as well, from things like being called wog, Paki and Black bastard to being stopped in my tracks as far as seeking promotions in my jobs are concerned. I am fortunate enough to succeeded but just think of the many asians whove gone through the same things I have but understandably havent suceeded in life. Society favours the local populatin than the asian one. This is the reality in a lot of cases. I am not whinging if you might think i am but i am just giving you an Idea of how things are my side of the fence, I dont get insulted any more if i get racial slurs because i just pity the people who say these things. They are ignorant about a lot of things and know nothing about Pakistanis and their culture, so how can one comment if they now nothing.
Im sorry to say again that I disagree with your logic. Why be aroused, have negativity and be suspicious of other people just because they are from a different culture or background. I dont call that embraving a another cultural group. As for what people are saying well it is none of peoples business, unless the talk is directed to them.
I dont believe people who live in England should be forced to speak english and i dont believe they are being prejudiced if they dont learn english. What I am promoting my friend is a simple concept called FREEDOM OF CHOICE. I have several stores that I own and i dont serve only Urdu speakers I serve anyone in the world who wishes to buy from my store, and certainly you as an Englishman would be welcome, it just seems that I dont find that many of the English want to buy from my stores. I wonder why that is?
As for the point that you suggested that i was tarring you with the same brush as the BNP, u know i didnt mean that. My ORIGINAL point was that you cant punish , accuse or place a law that prssurises the majority to catch the few.
I dont have a problem with the police searching people but they should have very strong reasons for doing so. They shouldnt just target asians like they have, sometimes at gun point and then after releasing them two weeks later say sorry. That is not good enough and this is not just the odd incident, it happens on a very regular basis. The police force it has been confirmed is inherintly racist, so I think getting rid of the racists would be a very good first step in gaining the trust of certain peoples. When they have done this i believe they should go about their job with very good grounds to search someone and not just because someone looks a certain way.
As far as changing the law, i believe that not being able to speak a language should not be an excuse to break the law or get people off the hook. Like you know the law is available in many languages and there isnt an excuse to plead ignorance. It is a simple solution really.
As for your next point i think that we have already agreed that you should have your right to claim your pride in your heritage and wave your little white flag with the red cross on it. You can go out on the streets and shout ENGLAND, ENGLAND and it wont bother me so i dont know why you are going on about it. We have already said that all people should should have the right to celebrate their culture and heritage. end of story.
As for the ghurka it is unfortunate but thats something you should write to the governmant about if you feel strongly about it. It makes me laugh haha when you accuse me of getting prickly when i have said several times now that quote"i dont think you are racist'. So dont try and portray me as something i am not, i dont think you are racist once again i think you are just a person with a misguided agenda. Indeed dont put words into my mouth by saying i promote racism when i dont do or have never said such a thing. I condemn racism , so dont accuse me of promoting it just to get your own way and win the argument.
What doesnt seem right to you is your problem, speaking a language should not be forced on people, simple as really.
Well if you suggest that the english see people of other cultures who dont speak english then surely the problem is with those english who dont give people the benefit of the doubt. I fail to see the correlation really. There could just as well be an asian who speaks english and yet upto no good. there could also be an asian who talks to people but talks rubbish. You are just making a small issue into a big one. If i didnt speak english i would be as nice and kind as i am to people. It woulnt make a difference to my personality and therefore there wouldnt be any problems and if people wanted to say im up to no good or that i am a terrorist just for that reason than the problem is theirs and not mine. U can use colourful language like abhorrant all you like but the reality is that most people who dont speak english in this country are not abhorrant.
This is not a very big issue indeed. It is only a very big issue indeed for those who want language forced upon people. Choosing to mix mainly with peopple of a similar culture is not racist GEORGE. bEING DEROGATORY TO PEOPLE OF OTHER CULTURES IS. Indeed I resent the fact that you suggest that asians put a facade of politeness which we certainly dont do. Stop trying to demonise asians. Facial expression usually tells you whether someone likes you or not or is pleased with you or not. We already have all white areas and yes if people choose to live like that they can, it is their chice. If they want to mix with asians that is their choice as well. Either way they can choose because it is called freedom of choice and i wouldnt forc the whites as you put it to live anywhere they didnt. Most whites choose not to live with asians probably because they prefer to live with people of a similar culture to them (You see how imm giving them the benefit of the doubt) otherwise taking a leaf from your way of thinking id accuse them of being racist and thats why they dont choose in asian areas. But I dont take that aggressive stance george. Yes i said there will never be room
>for the BNP because the BNP are a racist organisation that favours whites abd talks of repatriation. They are racist to people of colour.

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