Mary a perpetual virgin? -- Catholic Friends Forum

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[> [> [> Re: More misconceptions. -- Catie, 06:17:52 02/18/08 Mon [1] (h78.8.28.71.ip.alltel.net/71.28.8.78)

"This is why it's so frustrating to talk about religion w/ non-Catholics. They have so many misconceptions of what Catholics believe."

Joan, The frustration is what I wish we could avoid. That's why I stated, you have your beliefs and I have mine. Never the twain shall meet. :) I mean no disrespect on what I say, and as I stated a long time ago, my goal isn't to convince anyone else MY way is THE way (although I know I am right) lol --Should you ask me what I believe, it's right that you correct me if I am "technically" wrong in a statement regarding your church's belief system. Although I may not word it corrrectly, I can assure you I have heard, read enough info that I am firm in my belief that the way the Catholic church views Mary and her role today, are wrong scripturally.

{"I believe she was human, remained human,"

"You wrote that as if Catholics believe otherwise. Where did you learn that Catholics beleive that Mary wasn't a human being?"}

I never said that Catholics believe that Mary WASN'T human. I acknowledge Catholics know she was a human chosen vessel and I agree. I said I believe she was and REMAINED human. She was not transformed nor raptured into heaven upon her death.

I've read on this very forum that Mary is there, at the right hand of God, to ask God regarding our prayers on our behalf, making intercession for us, because 'afterall she was the mother of God'. I don't believe she is there at God's side working on anyone's behalf. She died like every human and she remains so today where she awaits the resurrection like the rest of the dead. Same as immortal. She is still mortal and will be so until the day of resurrection when "This mortal shall put on immortality", then shall we ever be with our Lord.

It is said Catholics do not pray to Mary. It is said that Catholics do not worship Mary. The "original" ten commandments, written by the very hand of God himself, says, "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven images". (Do you agree that is one of the ten commandments?) There are statues of Mary throughout the world. The problem I have with that is that I see Catholics bowing before those statues and then praying "Hail Mary, full of Grace...bless us now..." Mary can't bless anyone if she lies dead in the ground. Jesus himself said when you pray you should say "Our Father which is in heaven..."

Angesl/Intercession? No ma'am. I do not believe Angels intercede for us. Christ alone holds that position. "Jesus ascended unto the heavens, sits at right hand of God where he is there to ever make intercession for us." Angels do God's bidding, they do his work and are led by his directions. They have no "pull" with God to intercede for us. What right would they have to do that? They have never even known sin, how can they intercede for us? They are real heavenly beings created by God, for God and his work. They have a "will" of their own and willingly choose to obey God and they willingly love him and serve him. They are strong, and powerful to fight "spiritual warfare" here on earth on our behalf, at God's request.

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[> [> [> [> Re: More misconceptions--and again :) -- Joan, 15:23:45 02/18/08 Mon [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

" There are statues of Mary throughout the world. The problem I have with that is that I see Catholics bowing before those statues and then praying "Hail Mary, full of Grace...bless us now..." Mary can't bless anyone if she lies dead in the ground. Jesus himself said when you pray you should say "Our Father which is in heaven..." "

Again, misconceptions.

Protestants have made plenty of images of Mary and Joseph, too. And they pray in front of these images, just as Catholics do. The most common form is the nativity scene.

Why do you think you know what Catholics believe about Mary, when you misquote the most basic Catholic prayer, and it's with that misquote that you base your belief about Catholic beliefs.

Your version.

""Hail Mary, full of Grace...bless us now..." "

The real version.

"Hail Mary, full of grace, the lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb Jesus.

Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death?"

The first part of the prayer is almost direct quotes from the Bible. And it doesn't ask Mary to bless us. It asks her to pray for us. We all know that intercessory prayer works, or else we wouldn't ask others for prayers. If people really believed that intercessory prayer was someone unChristian, they wouldn't ask any to help them out by praying for them. Wouldn't it be a sin to ask someone to pray for you, then?

"Jesus himself said when you pray you should say "Our Father which is in heaven..." ""

And so you never say anything to God but, "Our Father who art in Heaven..."? ;)

Graven images. If God had meant that we shouldn't make imagaes of anything, he wouldn't have directed the Jews to create the ark of the covenant with angels on it. :) Obvioulsy he was talking only about graven images.

If Protestants believe that images of Mary are graven images, why do they have nativity scenes in their homes and churches? And why, if these things are graven images, do they have angel pins on their lapels? Angel thingys in their gardens?

Joan

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: More misconceptions--and again :) -- Joan (Catie), 16:04:27 02/18/08 Mon [1] (h78.8.28.71.ip.alltel.net/71.28.8.78)

Respectfully, I don't know the exact words of the prayer. I acknowledge that. I have heard it prayed in full before however. My misquote is not an indication of my lack of knowledge, but a poor choice on my part to attempt to repeat it. My lack of memory of it should be expected too since I don't repeat that prayer. The fact is Catholics do pray to Mary. I don't pray before a nativity scene, not to Mary, not to Joseph, not even to the baby Jesus "symbol". You are surely correct the first part, "Hail Mary, full of grace, the lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, (As I said I do admit she was highly regarded, rightfully so to carry the son of God) and blessed is the fruit of your womb Jesus." But where did the rest of it come from? Why do you pray to her? Where is it stated that you can/should pray to her, now a dead woman, to intercessory for you? Yes We as Christians certainly do ask for intercessory prayer among the living Christians, and to Christ himself. But He alone is the heavenly intercessor.

"And so you never say anything to God but, "Our Father who art in Heaven..."? ;) "

I certainly begin my prayers with "Father in heaven..." as I was instructed. Seriously, without sounding coy, am I missing a point here on this one? I do end my prayer "In the name of Jesus I ask this" as also instructed in the bible.

Do you or do you not agree the ten commandments state thou shall not make unto thee any graven image??

The Ark of the Covenant was never built for the purpose of the angels to be worhiped. In fact the angels there represent and were called the Shekinah Glory which means "God's presence." God was worshiped not the angels. The ark of the covenant is an earlthy replica of the entire story of salvation.

Angel pins. I am sorry but I honestly don't know anyone who prays or worships them. Honestly. I know folks who wear them that feel they are a symbol of their true guardian angel. Some wear them because they stir a conversation, some just because they are adorable. :)

I personally have never had an angel thingy in my garden. LOL - (cute word btw)I assumed it is for looks and nothing more though but I can't answer for others. We always prayed to God for his blessings over the bounty of our garden. But we didn't add any angel thingys. LOL

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: More misconceptions--and again :) -- Joan, 05:59:23 02/19/08 Tue [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

"I certainly begin my prayers with "Father in heaven..." as I was instructed. Seriously, without sounding coy, am I missing a point here on this one? I do end my prayer "In the name of Jesus I ask this" as also instructed in the bible."

The point is that you say many prayers, not just the Our Father. And I'm sure you repeat many of them--people are like that--we're creatures of repetition, even if we don't think we are. :) As you said, you begin and end your prayers with the same words.

" But where did the rest of it come from? Why do you pray to her? Where is it stated that you can/should pray to her, now a dead woman, to intercessory for you? Yes We as Christians certainly do ask for intercessory prayer among the living Christians, and to Christ himself. But He alone is the heavenly intercessor.

Uh, the Bible. ;) Who is more alive. The saints on Earth or the saints in Heaven?

"Do you or do you not agree the ten commandments state thou shall not make unto thee any graven image??"

Of course. But what is truly a graven image?

"The Ark of the Covenant was never built for the purpose of the angels to be worhiped. In fact the angels there represent and were called the Shekinah Glory which means "God's presence." God was worshiped not the angels. The ark of the covenant is an earlthy replica of the entire story of salvation.

Angel pins. I am sorry but I honestly don't know anyone who prays or worships them. Honestly. I know folks who wear them that feel they are a symbol of their true guardian angel. Some wear them because they stir a conversation, some just because they are adorable. :) "

Good. Now we're getting somewhere. You know that not every image that's made is made to worship. You admit that Catholics wear angels, have them in their gardens, and might have them in pictures on their walls. And you know that they don't "pray to or worship" them. Hooray!! :)

Now, will you also accept that, although you see a Catholic praying *in front of* a crucifix, that they are not praying *to* or worshiping the statue, but worship what it stands for--God!

We ask Mary and other saints (why Mary is singled out, and no one seems to mind that we ask St Michael the Archangel for assistance every Sunday, I don't know. :)) to pray for us, because of the communion of saints. There is no break in God's church. There is communion between the saints in Heaven, in Purgatory, and on Earth. We have statues and pictures of Mary for the same reason we have pictures of family. We have relics of saints for the same reason we have keepsakes of out deceased relatives (My teddy bear is being made from my father's uniform shirt--can't wait to get it!).

We admire and revere saints for the good example they provide for us. Some people have General E Lee on their walls, others have Grant or Lincoln. Still others have St Patrick, Mary, or Mother Teresa. All good examples. I don't know anyone who worships these images, whether it's a photo or a 3D image.

Statues and crucifixes aren't made to be worshiped, and they aren't. Just look at the statues of Mary in people's yards. Would they be so beat up--broken and weather-worn--if it was being worshiped?

Are you willing to accept that, or will you continue to decide that Catholics believe something that they don't?

"But He alone is the heavenly intercessor.'

Again, what about the angels?
Joan

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: More misconceptions--and again :) -- Catie, 07:09:11 02/19/08 Tue [1] (h78.8.28.71.ip.alltel.net/71.28.8.78)

"We ask Mary and other saints (why Mary is singled out, and no one seems to mind that we ask St Michael the Archangel for assistance every Sunday, I don't know. :)) to pray for us, because of the communion of saints. There is no break in God's church. There is communion between the saints in Heaven, in Purgatory, and on Earth. We have statues and pictures of Mary for the same reason we have pictures of family. We have relics of saints for the same reason we have keepsakes of out deceased relatives (My teddy bear is being made from my father's uniform shirt--can't wait to get it!)." "Are you willing to accept that, or will you continue to decide that Catholics believe something that they don't?"

I have my bear too, and think of Terry when I see it. I keep it in a safe place and laugh and cry when I recall him wearing that shirt. But it's just an object, nothing more. I don't make an issue of it being Terry's shirt.
Joan, your own words just said "We ask Mary to pray for us..." "We ask angels for assistance." What I do accept is that way is part of YOUR belief as a Catholic. So be it. As I said, to each his own belief. Some believe one way, some the other. But No I don't accept it as being biblical, according to what I believe, according to what I read it is not correct to believe that way. So Of course we will not come to terms as in agreeing obviously. :) We can but agree to disagree I think at this point. As I stated in an previous post, only God, Christ is to be prayed TO. Mary is not anywhere she can hear your prayers. Angels obey God, not man.

"(why Mary is singled out, and no one seems to mind that we ask St Michael the Archangel for assistance every Sunday, I don't know. :)) "

Angels as intercessors? No. I would never pray to Michael, or any angel nor ask for their assistance. God is the one I pray to, Christ is the one who died in our place, he is the only one who holds that position and is worthy as an intercessor. He knows how to direct and instruct his angels as to what to do. :) They obey God and do his work, not mans. Further more we differ as I said earlier, in that I would never ask ANYONE who has died such as Peter, Or Paul, to inerceded for me. They are all dead in the ground. They have not arrived in heaven yet so therefore they can't hear my prayers. I find nothing in scripture that tells me otherwise.

I have my way of believing and you have yours. You think I am wrong and vice versa. I am not condemning, just sharing. :)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: More misconceptions--and again :) -- Joan, 16:09:52 02/19/08 Tue [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

I don't object to your different beliefs, of course. But when you say that Catholics worship Mary, and you've been told we don't, that I object to.

You *think* we worship Mary, but you are wrong.

I don't know why you believe these things. Perhaps it has something to do with what your church teaches you about Catholicism. Perhaps it's just that you see things but haven't studied them, and so you don't know what it's all about.

You insistance that I don't know my own religion thought, is baffling. Why do you think you know what Catholics believe and I don't? :)

If you want to know what Catholics believe, you can get a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Or you can find it (the CCC) online.

You won't find anything in it on worshiping Mary, because we don't, but you will find a plethera of information on Mary and the Catholic Church.

"No I don't accept it as being biblical,"

And of course the Catholic Bible is a little longer than the later Protestant version. So we'll never agree on exactly what is Biblical and what isn't. We won't agree on what the Bible *is*. lol

Joan

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Joan -- Catie, 18:27:41 02/19/08 Tue [1] (h78.8.28.71.ip.alltel.net/71.28.8.78)

"I don't know why you believe these things. Perhaps it has something to do with what your church teaches you about Catholicism. Perhaps it's just that you see things but haven't studied them, and so you don't know what it's all about...You insistance that I don't know my own religion thought, is baffling. Why do you think you know what Catholics believe and I don't? :) "

I don't insist nor would I even consider knowing more about your religion than you. That would be arrogant not to mention silly. Also I am not trying to "bash" your religion or make up things that aren't there.

When you stated that Catholics ask Mary to Pray and intercede, means you think of Mary as having some sort of "holy power". Why? Because she is not alive. But If she were alive, living today and you asked her to pray for you, it would be different. But seeing that she has died, and -as it was once stated here, believes she sits near or at God's throne to "intercede" it would appear to me that she is viewed as someone who is bigger than life, something akin to diety. Afterall, "The throne of God" is a most Holy place. Don't we as Christians generally "pray to diety?" Since Mary is dead and you are asking her to pray for you, then it seems you are praying TO HER when you ask that. That is what makes it seem to me at least that you are praying to and worshiping Mary. I don't think I've misunderstood that you said those things, right? -If so I apologize.

Perhaps what it comes down to is terminology? What you practice, praying to ask her assistance, feeling she is at God's side, is what I equate to "worshiping". Our prayers that go "up" should go to God alone. :) Anyway, it seems our main division might then be in our terminology.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Mary and bears -- Joan, 05:39:06 02/20/08 Wed [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

"When you stated that Catholics ask Mary to Pray and intercede, means you think of Mary as having some sort of "holy power". Why?"

I guess I have to ask you why you ask others to pray for you. Do you think that your friends have some sort of "holy power"? Why do you ask someone else to pray for you? Doesn't God already know what you need? Do you doubt the power of your own prayer? Why ask someone else to pray for you?

I ask Mary to pray for me, because she *is* alive in Heaven. All the saints in Heaven are more alive than we are. Since we believe in the communion of saints--all of us, not just the comparatively few saints who happen to be on Earth today--we can ask any saint to pray for us. Why? For the same reasons you ask a more limited number of saints to pray for you.

We don't believe that Mary can pray for us, just as any other saint can pray for us.

"Since Mary is dead"

And here we disagree. :) I believe in life after death. I believe that Mary is alive in Heaven, more alive than we are. Life doesn't end at Earthly death. And it's not on hold, as if in suspended animation.

"Since Mary is dead and you are asking her to pray for you, then it seems you are praying TO HER when you ask that. That is what makes it seem to me at least that you are praying to and worshiping Mary. I don't think I've misunderstood that you said those things, right? "

No. You are saying that Mary is dead, that we worship her, and that we are praying to her as we pray to God.

I am saying that Mary is alive in Heaven, that we ask her to pray for us, because we believe in the communion of saints (all of us), and that we do *not* worship Mary as we worship God. We do not worship Mary at all. Mary is revered and is very special, since she is the mother of God. But as special as that is, Mary is not God. Worship is something reserve only for God.

Joan

PS: How big is your shirt bear? My sister is getting a larger one, and I'm getting a smaller version. Did you have yours embroidered w/ Terry's name?

Joan

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Oh Joan -- Catie, 08:02:26 02/20/08 Wed [1] (h78.8.28.71.ip.alltel.net/71.28.8.78)

please don't ask me anything to do with numbers or measurements. Unless it's written out for me.
i.e.: I know how far I live from Atlanta cause the sign says so, (Atlanta 88 miles at exit I-75) otherwise I have no clue. I'm pathetically & completely right brained! :) I

It's a medium size bear I think. :) Not too small, not too large. I didn't think of having any of them embroidered. (I bought 5) That would have been a wonderful thing to have done. Are you pleased with yours?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> I don't have mine yet. -- Joan, 10:37:40 02/20/08 Wed [1] (ip68-0-253-131.ri.ri.cox.net/68.0.253.131)

It's going to have my father's name on one foot--LT Clancy--and a copy of his firefighter's patch on the other foot.
The buttons from his shirt will be on its stomach.

The shirt is a khaki color, so I'm not sure that it will be very cute. Who ever heard of a dull khaki teddy bear? lol But I'll treasure it of course.

It's funny how conversations get your mind running. I was thinking of Saints' relics. The pieces of robes and stuff like that never bothered me. But things like peices of bone? OK, that's weird. Then I though, is it any weirder than the collection of baby teeth I have fossilizing in my top bureau drawer? Or the lock of baby hair? lol

Do you have your kids' teeth or locks of their baby hair?

Joan

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Joan, your bear will be perfect! :-)................ -- Barb, 14:50:01 02/20/08 Wed [1] (clgrtnt2-port-112.dial.telus.net/161.184.42.112)

I have small locks of my kid's hair in their baby books...and believe it or not, I have an envelope of my own curls that my mom kept from a haircut I had at 3 years. Curls...lovely soft, shiny curls...but no more. Ah well. :-/