VoyForums
[ Show ]
Support VoyForums
[ Shrink ]
VoyForums Announcement: Programming and providing support for this service has been a labor of love since 1997. We are one of the few services online who values our users' privacy, and have never sold your information. We have even fought hard to defend your privacy in legal cases; however, we've done it with almost no financial support -- paying out of pocket to continue providing the service. Due to the issues imposed on us by advertisers, we also stopped hosting most ads on the forums many years ago. We hope you appreciate our efforts.

Show your support by donating any amount. (Note: We are still technically a for-profit company, so your contribution is not tax-deductible.) PayPal Acct: Feedback:

Donate to VoyForums (PayPal):

[ Login ] [ Contact Forum Admin ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time | Archives: [1], 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 ]

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Date Posted: 10:23:09 10/14/09 Wed
Author: Jeannine
Subject: Muppy, I either didn't know or somehow forgot -

Honestly, I know I MUST have known at some point, but I had no idea you are Jewish. May I ask if your heritage is Jewish or if you are a religious convert? I ask because there is much about Judism that I find fascinating. I have a nephew who converted to Judism but he is like that guy on Seinfield - converts and then instantly has an accent. The first time he said Oy Vey he lost all credibility with me (yes, I am strict, lol).

One aspect that I really wonder about: I see so much anti-Semitism in the Democrat Party. Examples would be Jimmy Carter, Hillary Clinton, Jesse Jackson, and now Obama for his blantant disregard of Israel. I guess my point is that I do not understand how a Jew could be a democrat.

I should make it clear that I do not believe all democrats are anti-semitic anymore than most of you believe that all republicans are racists.

There is more, but I will save it for later.

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

[> I'm ... -- muppetmel, 11:28:08 10/14/09 Wed [1]

... Jewish born and became a religious observant Jew almost nine years ago now, after some 45 years of being completely secular but keeping the heritage and traditions. Culturally and ethnically Jewish, but not a Torah-keeping Jew.

The year I made the jump into observance was 2001, in the June preceding 9/11. I was all set and planning to attend the Orlando HOdown that year, but cancelled my plans because I was afraid to fly.

Instead, I jumped into keeping kosher, Sabbath and all the joys in between. ;-D

I can answer stuff generally here, but I'll drop you an e-mail tonight.

I heartily disagree with Obama's policy on the Middle East, and find it heavily favoured AGAINT Israel and actually putting her at risk. I strongly believe in a Palestinian state but not if it would compromise Israel's security and that is chiefly why I am very opposed to the current administration. I find Obama even more threatening than the Clintons and Carter were.

Compound that with his domestic and fiscal policies that I find to be deeply flawed and harmful, and you can see why if I were an American voter -- I would be a Republican (for lack of a conservative alternative choice). It's why I'm VERY happy with my current Conservative Canoodian government, which is staunchly and unequivocally supportive of Israel -- as well as a state for the Palestinian people.


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> Thank you so much -- Jeannine, 12:24:14 10/14/09 Wed [1]

There is so much there to think about. I need to read it two or three times, and want to discuss it with my husband.

I do not think most Americans understand the whole Israel/Palestinian issue. I would like to absorb this and post later. Thanks again.


[ Edit | View ]

[> [> [> Heh, you might need two or three days. It was loooong! ;-D -- muppetmel, 12:28:37 10/14/09 Wed [1]


[ Edit | View ]

[> Oooh, I forgot the part about why... -- muppetmel, 12:12:58 10/14/09 Wed [1]

.... so many Jews vote Democrat -- 78 per cent in fact supported Obama. I get asked this a lot, so I have honed this answer over time. See if this helps, but I do think it's only part of the picture.

Why so many Jews support Obama

You will very rarely find a democrat voter among religious Jews. You won't often find a Republican among non-religious Jews. Why is this? Because religious Jews' adherence to Torah law most closely aligns with evangelical Christians on social issues like same-sex marriage, abortion, etc.

It's what we generally call "G-dly values" or what was thrashed around during the GW Bush years as "family values."

Excluding the whole messiah issue, we're very much in tandem with the moral majority, and that's the fact. You can see why secular Jews often villify not only Evangelicals but also religious Jews.

To complicate the issue, religious and non-religious Jews almost all strongly support Israel. This excludes both extreme left and extreme right. Why? Extreme left have blinders on regarding the Palestinian issue. They view Israel as the evil oppressor, negating 100 years of Arab hostility, massacres and terrorism, and Israeli resilience and ability to FIGHT BACK.

They believe in creating a Palestinian state by carving away swaths of Israeli property, without any preconditions requiring a Palestinian state to commit to living peaceably alongside Israel and stop the terrorism and barrage of missiles on Israeli towns.

They ignore the fact that Israel has already given up much territory in the misguided idea that giving up land will bring peace. Has it stopped the missiles raining down from Gaza? No.

They believe that Israel, unlike every other country in the world (including the U.S.), should be required to give back land it won in a war of aggression perpetrated AGAINST IT.

They think that when Israel builds a wall to keep terrorists out, it is being divisive and isolationist. I saw the wall up close and personal, just a stone or grenade's throw from hostile Arab terrority. I travelled in a bullet proof bus with armed guards to visit a holy Jewish site -- Rachel's Tomb -- with only that wall between me and the enemy. I saw graffiti plastered all over that wall screaming for the evil Zionist empire to get out -- and irony of ironies -- the graffiti was all on the SAFE side of the wall.

But enough about the Jewish left.

Extreme rightist religious Jews do not see themselves as Zionists, who are largely proponents of a SECULAR state of Israel. Extreme right Jews want an Israel that is a religious Jewish state that adheres to Torah laws on every level.

Zionism -- committed to the return of Jews to the Land of Israel -- was a philosophy that envisioned an atheistic, socialist pioneering society that would build a thriving country out of desert scrabble. And its only been in the last 30 or so years that there has been a movement of "Zionist Religious Jews" -- committed to an Israel where both religious and non-religious coexist.

It's a tough internal struggle that echoes throughout the diaspora with hostilies between religious and non-religious Jews, who square off on values, morality, philosophy and the issue of assimilation. Ultimately, it reflects in how we align politically.

In the middle of this is the largest component of Jews -- the secular and assimilated Jews who vote with the party they identify as the party reflecting their value system of philanthropy, social welfare / community and liberalism -- the Democrats. They don't see that unchecked liberalism is a vast departure from the core values reflected in the Jewish Torah.

To add to all this is the trepidation non-religious Jews feel around being evangelized by both religious Christians and religious Jews. Us religious Jews want them to stay in the fold. Christians want them to praise the lord and be saved. What a dilemma. So they are repelled by anything that smacks of religiousity from both sides.

Orthodox Jews have a stronger faith and sense they are on a hard and unwavering religious path, and don't feel the same threat from Evangelicals. They understand the Christian right's love of Jews and Israel, and yes, we do know of the rapture theology. They view Evangelicals as Israel's best friend, and they are very comfortable with the bedrock philosophies of conservatism.


[ Edit | View ]


[ Contact Forum Admin ]

Forum timezone: GMT-8
VF Version: 3.00b, ConfDB:
Before posting please read our privacy policy.
VoyForums(tm) is a Free Service from Voyager Info-Systems.
Copyright © 1998-2019 Voyager Info-Systems. All Rights Reserved.