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Date Posted: 12:47:55 09/18/11 Sun
Author: George
Subject: Re: Silencing of Richard Price -- Part Four
In reply to: George 's message, "Re: Silencing of Richard Price -- Part Three" on 12:44:59 09/18/11 Sun


RICHARD ...by their own admission, by their own statements, uh, and whatever I said there was true. And I stand on it. Uh, [unintelligible]

O.C> I'm sure over the last ten years you've given some consideration to the fact that Price may have to pay the price....

RICHARD Certainly, I, I thought of that before I started with the first batch. I spent seventeen months writing The Posi-- "The Saints at the Crossroads." I expected that would be the result. Uh, it doesn't make any difference. I...I'm obligated to God, to proclaim and defend, uh, the original beliefs of the church. I have no choice. I can't get out of it. I can't back, I can't run. I can only stay with the original beliefs that are found in the Three Standard Books, and the church history. That IS the church. That IS the gospel, and I'm staying with it, regardless of what anybody does. And I'm going to publish every bit of it that I can publish, as long as I'm able. And Price Publishing Company is a little different from Cumorah Books. For personal reasons we had two companies, doing exactly the same thing. And I'm not going to change.

DAVID What can my father do to recon...

RICHARD ...nor could I change.

DAVID How can he be reconciled to the church position, uh, without bringing down whatever is, uh, awaiting, uh?

RICHARD Uh, yes, if you can find some way that we can reconcile, I'd be happy to consider it.

O.C> Well, very obviously in the position...from the, uh, position of the church, you'd have to state, you have to...

RICHARD ...the church leaders...

O.C> Well, however, you wish to state that...

RICHARD Yes.

O.C> ...you'd have to change your...your position.

RICHARD Well, the only thing that I can see is either they come back to the Restoration, or we'll never be able to be together.

DAVID My, my father would, and let me get this straight, would have to print retractions to what he has stated? Would have to disclaim his good works? Is that what you're stating? Now this is a pretty serious thing. My father's life is on the line here, not physically, but, but his ministry in many circles. What exactly is he to do so that he can make a choice before whatever happens, happens?

O.C> Number one, Richard, I think you'd see the need to discontinue what you're doing, and you just stated you won't do that.

RICHARD How in the world could I, uh, not publish things that tell the old story or The Old Jerusalem Gospel, by Joseph Luff, any way that I can not do that. I have the opportunity to do it, God requires that we proclaim the gospel. And that is the gospel.

[four second pause]

O.C> And, of course, the second thing would be that in, in some particular instances it probably would be, uh, quite appropriate, to make a retraction of some charges.

RICHARD [two to three words obscured by David's simultaneous comment]

DAVID Which ones?

RICHARD You would have to list them all out, and which one I should retract. What?

O.C> The main ones, such as the First Presidency trying to take the church into the World
Council and the National Council of Churches.

RICHARD I, uh, I, uh,

O.C> You claim they are, and they claim they're not.

RICHARD I claim that they are. Now, I'm not going to say that they are going to sign the line that they belong to it, at the present time. But they're doing everything but that. And I'm saying, and I want you to tell them [unintelligible] I suppose you know how to take two, that when they, uh, uh, what they are going to do is get the church, meaning the people, into the position where they believe everything that the World Council believes, and then all they'll have to do is announce "We're just like them," so let's just "sign here," at the General Conference, to accept that. You see, even the, the National Council of Churches, we have the Department of Religious Education, and the National Council has the Commission on Religious Education, so we've changed the name of our departments in order to conform to the National Council of Churches.

O.C> Richard, do you think that the people who, uh, have what you identify as a more liberal point of view, you identify them as less than Restorationists?

RICHARD No, uh, different from Restorationists., but, now....

O.C> You wouldn't deny them the right to believe in the Restoration?

RICHARD Oh, I hope they do. What I don't understand is how they can they believe in it when they believe in this other, and especially when they've printed that the Restoration doesn't mean restoring the, uh, New Testament church in 1830, but it means updating uh, the, uh, present organization, uh, to whatever they want it updated to. And this comes right from, uh, W. Wallace, and Wallace B. They both said this, the Restoration doesn't mean restoring the New Testament church in 1830.

[twelve second pause]

O.C> I understand in the letter that you're about to retire up here next year.

RICHARD Yes, in about a year.

O.C> You'll be sixty-five?

RICHARD I'll be sixty-two.

O.C> You're retiring at sixty-two?

RICHARD Uh, huh.

O.C> You'll be devoting your time, then, to this new venture?

RICHARD Uh, huh. After all, it's the duty of everyone to proclaim the gospel, and to defend the gospel.

O.C> Everybody, Richard, has the right to go into business. If you want to go into the publishing business, that's also your right. But, as an elder in the church, if you're in violation of the editorial policy of the church, you've got a problem.

RICHARD [unintelligible]

O.C> As a member of the church, you may do whatever you choose, even the publishing business.

RICHARD Where did the, where did the Presidency get the right to uh, control the editorial policy and not allow anybody else to publish anything?

O.C> The World Conference raised its hand and made it the law of the church.

RICHARD That nobody can publish anything without their permission? Is that right?

O.C> When it comes to, uh, what the people of the church should receive and utilize by way of program material, literature for Christian educational program, this kind of thing, yes, that is their right.

RICHARD And doctrine?

O.C> Yes.

RICHARD Well, I can go and publish, uh, pornography, and, uh, they wouldn't say much about it.

O.C> Oh, I think they would, if you were an elder in the church, or a member of the church.

RICHARD If I, uh, uh, published the other side of the coin so that the saints can choose between the two, uh, I'm having problems with the sense, uh, then I'm out of order. You see, there can be no common consent unless both sides of the story are published and carefully read and a person comes and votes between one or the other.

O.C> You don't believe, then, that common consent was exercised when 709 was given at the World Conference?

RICHARD I don't remember 709. Which one is that?

O.C> It's the editorial policy.

RICHARD Ah, that's it.

O.C> Folks raised their hand in support and passed it, and you don't believe that was common consent.

RICHARD I believe that even if they did pass it, they were in error, eh, because if they meant to take away the people's rights to, uh, express themselves, in print. See, the Constitution gives us the right to publish.

O.C> Well, Richard, I... don't misunderstand me. I just got through saying that as a member of the church, you've got a right to go into the publishing business just like anybody else...

RICHARD Uh, huh.

O.C> ...but as an elder in the church, what you do in that publishing business that's in conflict with the editorial policy of the church changes the picture.

RICHARD Oh, let me say this...that if I'm going to be silenced, for publishing the old gospel, the original beliefs of the church, then silence me. Let ‘er rip.

O.C> I'm ready.

RICHARD I, I'll, uh, go to bed every night with a prayer in my heart of thanksgiving that I had the opportunity to give up my elder's license for, uh, the right to publish the gospel, and also the right to inform the saints of what's going on. You see, what we're having...

O.C> You're....you're...Don't extract from your publishing rights, now, when you talk about The Old Jerusalem Gospel, the book by Joseph Luff, or somebody else...don't extract from that...that "The Saints at the Crossroads" is being overlooked.

RICHARD No, sir.

O.C> Or the "Decision Time"...

RICHARD Right...

O.C> ....is not overlooked.

RICHARD right.

O.C> These are the issues, not the fact that Joseph Luff's book...

RICHARD But...

O.C> is being republished.

RICHARD But there's nothing in these books that the President has found is not true.

O.C> Well, that's uh...

RICHARD I, uh...

O.C> that's a perspective that you....

RICHARD No...

O.C> ...have, but

RICHARD If they've found anything that's not true, it's their duty to, uh, have some, uh, editor, uh, write these things down and send me a copy, so I can retract it. If they're not true, I want to retract them.

DAVID It, it would seem so embarrassing to me to keep saying that, uh.

O.C> It's nearly impossible for you to interpret somebody else's point of view, separate and apart from that mind set that you've already established. And you've already established it, Richard. You've got it set in your mind. Clearly. As I've read and listened to what you've said even tonight, when there ARE, there ARE inaccuracies in Decision Time. There are inaccuracies in, uh, uh, The Saints at the Crossroads. But, from your perspective, or your personal interpretation, they're not inaccuracies.

RICHARD Well, if I have...

[unintelligible sound from unidentifiable voice]

RICHARD ... misquoted...if I've told a falsehood about these brethren, they owe it to me let me know this...because everything that I've said, there...there's been no denial, except one thing, and that is that I said the church is based on the scriptures, and I still say it. But I don't want to be in Brigham Young's position of saying that the Presidency has the right to supercede the scriptures. [two second pause] And that's where....that's the position they are in. [2.5 second pause] Now this problem's a lot bigger than, than me, that you're having to face. The problem is, as Mary Harlacher told me the other night at, uh, uh, Enoch Hill, that there are sensible people who are reading the scriptures, and praying about this. And, uh, they believe that these men are changing
the church. Of course, the Presidency themselves say they're changing the church. Whole
position papers on change. But the church cannot change.

O.C> Richard, would you believe that people walked out of that church the other night, and
stopped, and said to me they thought it was extremely unfortunate that they were not given a chance to listen to what I came there to present, because they wanted to hear what the church has written of explanation for it, all the way through, from the beginning of that book to the end, so they could be better informed, and so they could get on with it.

RICHARD They can buy the book.

O.C> But you, and your son, particularly, and Bob, and a couple of others, who occupied most of the time, persisted in bringing about what was ultimately, of course, the thing we didn't want, which was argument and debate, and they felt like they were denied that chance of really...

RICHARD Well,

O.C> ...having a chance to [trails off under the next response]

RICHARD This is completely polarized, uh, people came by me and patted me on the back for defending the faith. [one second pause] Many of them. More people patted me on the back for defending the faith than patted you on the back for defending the faith.

O.C> That may be, in that one congregation.

RICHARD [Very faint] Uh, huh. [Louder] So, I hope that the Presidency can see that they ARE splitting the church. And the reason they are splitting the church is because they're departing from the basis of the church, which is the Three Standard Books, and, uh, uh Joseph Smith's gospel. And, if they're going to depart from that, they are going to split the church.

DAVID Dad, please, uh...

RICHARD Just like Brigham Young, uh, did.

DAVID Please qualify that: "Joseph Smith's gospel."

RICHARD Well, I'm talking about the gospel that Joseph Smith gave.....

O.C> Joseph Smith didn't have a gospel. It's the gospel of Jesus Christ.

RICHARD That's right.

DAVID That's what my father meant when he ...

RICHARD We agree upon that. Yes, that's where we're agreed. That's what I meant. So, uh, this problem won't go away by silencing me. It won't go away if I should die. The, uh, problem is that the Presidency has departed from the faith. And they know this. And I think everybody knows this. Uh, Draper's, uh, telling it right here in this, uh, book about "Restoration Studies." [5 second pause] The church can't change. It...they can't.

O.C> What do you mean by that?

RICHARD I mean that we can't throw out, uh, the, uh, fact that the church is restored, the New Testament church was restored in 1830, and a few years following, of course, the time
[unintelligible]

DAVID Doctrines and procedures.

RICHARD ...the doctrines of the church, uh, you are very familiar with, are permanent. [One second pause] That goes for women in the priesthood; it's, uh, contrary to the, the, uh, gospel. [three second pause] At least you can see our position; maybe you can feel as sorry for us as we feel for you and the Brethren.

O.C> Richard, I have, uh, I have too much compassion, probably, to be in the job that I'm in; and I, I know that people who recognize that I've taken pretty strong positions in the past where silences were concerned wouldn't believe that, but, there isn't any place in my job description that identifies that part of my job is to silence men. There isn't any place in my job description for that.

[1.5 second pause]

RICHARD Uh...

O.C> But if you were in my position, and you recognized that responsibility of upholding the church...

RICHARD ...the church leaders...

O.C> and the, in my position upholding the church, both, and the church leaders, which is
intended to protect the church, I don't have any choice.

RICHARD Well, I don't either. So you do what you have to do, and I'll do what I have to do, and I can feel sorry for you. In fact, I, I pray that the Lord will help you somehow, to see that you're making a tremendous mistake. You are, uh, following a group of men, who are leading us away from the original beliefs of the church, and the New Testament church, even men who even say that the apostles were not, uh....

O.C> Why do, why do you think, Richard, that I don't believe that for a minute?

RICHARD You don't believe this first part of the guidelines that you wouldn't present down
here, uh, at Enoch Hill?

O.C> No. I don't have any...I don't have any...

RICHARD Why didn't you tell us you didn't believe in it?

O.C> I didn't, I didn't say I didn't believe in it, or did believe it. I didn't. I, I wasn't planning to present the first section.

RICHARD Yes?

O.C> I, uh, my intention was to get into two particular areas, but I didn't get a chance to do it.
The other matter that's there, was for the people to read anytime they wish to read it, and we could discuss it as they wish to discuss it, rather than debate and argue about it. I do have a problem with what may appear to be in some cases the need to revise it, rewrite it, for clarity's sake.

RICHARD Uh, huh

O.C> But I do not have a problem with the guidelines, per se.

RICHARD Well, I do.

O.C> But let me share the other thing with you that I just was saying. My conviction about the Restoration and the original church, I believe, is as great as yours is.

RICHARD Well, I, I'll accept that. I hope it's true, and I believe it is. I don't understand it...

O.C> But what...

RICHARD Can you...

O.C> what...

RICHARD ... understand my position?

O.C> No, I can't understand your position when it comes to the way in which other people have been misinterpreted. And you've written and attacked them in those ways. I don't, that's what I don't understand.

RICHARD You, know, if you saw a person who's bringing apostasy into the church, and he
wrote this, in his own words, wouldn't you be obligated to, uh...

O.C> I don't, I don't see that as apostasy, Richard.

RICHARD Well, of course I do, you see. This is different.... But if you saw somebody doing something wrong, it'd be your obligation to do what you could to help him, or at least to protect the saints.

O.C> Well, in my judgment, Richard, you've done a major disservice to the church.

RICHARD Uh, huh.

RICHARD ...by their own admission, by their own statements, uh, and whatever I said there was true. And I stand on it. Uh, [unintelligible]

O.C> I'm sure over the last ten years you've given some consideration to the fact that Price may have to pay the price....

RICHARD Certainly, I, I thought of that before I started with the first batch. I spent seventeen months writing The Posi-- "The Saints at the Crossroads." I expected that would be the result. Uh, it doesn't make any difference. I...I'm obligated to God, to proclaim and defend, uh, the original beliefs of the church. I have no choice. I can't get out of it. I can't back, I can't run. I can only stay with the original beliefs that are found in the Three Standard Books, and the church history. That IS the church. That IS the gospel, and I'm staying with it, regardless of what anybody does. And I'm going to publish every bit of it that I can publish, as long as I'm able. And Price Publishing Company is a little different from Cumorah Books. For personal reasons we had two companies, doing exactly the same thing. And I'm not going to change.

DAVID What can my father do to recon...

RICHARD ...nor could I change.

DAVID How can he be reconciled to the church position, uh, without bringing down whatever is, uh, awaiting, uh?

RICHARD Uh, yes, if you can find some way that we can reconcile, I'd be happy to consider it.

O.C> Well, very obviously in the position...from the, uh, position of the church, you'd have to state, you have to...

RICHARD ...the church leaders...

O.C> Well, however, you wish to state that...

RICHARD Yes.

O.C> ...you'd have to change your...your position.

RICHARD Well, the only thing that I can see is either they come back to the Restoration, or we'll never be able to be together.

DAVID My, my father would, and let me get this straight, would have to print retractions to what he has stated? Would have to disclaim his good works? Is that what you're stating? Now this is a pretty serious thing. My father's life is on the line here, not physically, but, but his ministry in many circles. What exactly is he to do so that he can make a choice before whatever happens, happens?

O.C> Number one, Richard, I think you'd see the need to discontinue what you're doing, and you just stated you won't do that.

RICHARD How in the world could I, uh, not publish things that tell the old story or The Old Jerusalem Gospel, by Joseph Luff, any way that I can not do that. I have the opportunity to do it, God requires that we proclaim the gospel. And that is the gospel.

[four second pause]

O.C> And, of course, the second thing would be that in, in some particular instances it probably would be, uh, quite appropriate, to make a retraction of some charges.

RICHARD [two to three words obscured by David's simultaneous comment]

DAVID Which ones?

RICHARD You would have to list them all out, and which one I should retract. What?

O.C> The main ones, such as the First Presidency trying to take the church into the World
Council and the National Council of Churches.

RICHARD I, uh, I, uh,

O.C> You claim they are, and they claim they're not.

RICHARD I claim that they are. Now, I'm not going to say that they are going to sign the line that they belong to it, at the present time. But they're doing everything but that. And I'm saying, and I want you to tell them [unintelligible] I suppose you know how to take two, that when they, uh, uh, what they are going to do is get the church, meaning the people, into the position where they believe everything that the World Council believes, and then all they'll have to do is announce "We're just like them," so let's just "sign here," at the General Conference, to accept that. You see, even the, the National Council of Churches, we have the Department of Religious Education, and the National Council has the Commission on Religious Education, so we've changed the name of our departments in order to conform to the National Council of Churches.

O.C> Richard, do you think that the people who, uh, have what you identify as a more liberal point of view, you identify them as less than Restorationists?

RICHARD No, uh, different from Restorationists., but, now....

O.C> You wouldn't deny them the right to believe in the Restoration?

RICHARD Oh, I hope they do. What I don't understand is how they can they believe in it when they believe in this other, and especially when they've printed that the Restoration doesn't mean restoring the, uh, New Testament church in 1830, but it means updating uh, the, uh, present organization, uh, to whatever they want it updated to. And this comes right from, uh, W. Wallace, and Wallace B. They both said this, the Restoration doesn't mean restoring the New Testament church in 1830.

[twelve second pause]

O.C> I understand in the letter that you're about to retire up here next year.

RICHARD Yes, in about a year.

O.C> You'll be sixty-five?

RICHARD I'll be sixty-two.

O.C> You're retiring at sixty-two?

RICHARD Uh, huh.

O.C> You'll be devoting your time, then, to this new venture?

RICHARD Uh, huh. After all, it's the duty of everyone to proclaim the gospel, and to defend the gospel.

O.C> Everybody, Richard, has the right to go into business. If you want to go into the publishing business, that's also your right. But, as an elder in the church, if you're in violation of the editorial policy of the church, you've got a problem.

RICHARD [unintelligible]

O.C> As a member of the church, you may do whatever you choose, even the publishing business.

RICHARD Where did the, where did the Presidency get the right to uh, control the editorial policy and not allow anybody else to publish anything?

O.C> The World Conference raised its hand and made it the law of the church.

RICHARD That nobody can publish anything without their permission? Is that right?

O.C> When it comes to, uh, what the people of the church should receive and utilize by way of program material, literature for Christian educational program, this kind of thing, yes, that is their right.

RICHARD And doctrine?

O.C> Yes.

RICHARD Well, I can go and publish, uh, pornography, and, uh, they wouldn't say much about it.

O.C> Oh, I think they would, if you were an elder in the church, or a member of the church.

RICHARD If I, uh, uh, published the other side of the coin so that the saints can choose between the two, uh, I'm having problems with the sense, uh, then I'm out of order. You see, there can be no common consent unless both sides of the story are published and carefully read and a person comes and votes between one or the other.

O.C> You don't believe, then, that common consent was exercised when 709 was given at the World Conference?

RICHARD I don't remember 709. Which one is that?

O.C> It's the editorial policy.

RICHARD Ah, that's it.

O.C> Folks raised their hand in support and passed it, and you don't believe that was common consent.

RICHARD I believe that even if they did pass it, they were in error, eh, because if they meant to take away the people's rights to, uh, express themselves, in print. See, the Constitution gives us the right to publish.

O.C> Well, Richard, I... don't misunderstand me. I just got through saying that as a member of the church, you've got a right to go into the publishing business just like anybody else...

RICHARD Uh, huh.

O.C> ...but as an elder in the church, what you do in that publishing business that's in conflict with the editorial policy of the church changes the picture.

RICHARD Oh, let me say this...that if I'm going to be silenced, for publishing the old gospel, the original beliefs of the church, then silence me. Let ‘er rip.

O.C> I'm ready.

RICHARD I, I'll, uh, go to bed every night with a prayer in my heart of thanksgiving that I had the opportunity to give up my elder's license for, uh, the right to publish the gospel, and also the right to inform the saints of what's going on. You see, what we're having...

O.C> You're....you're...Don't extract from your publishing rights, now, when you talk about The Old Jerusalem Gospel, the book by Joseph Luff, or somebody else...don't extract from that...that "The Saints at the Crossroads" is being overlooked.

RICHARD No, sir.

O.C> Or the "Decision Time"...

RICHARD Right...

O.C> ....is not overlooked.

RICHARD right.

O.C> These are the issues, not the fact that Joseph Luff's book...

RICHARD But...

O.C> is being republished.

RICHARD But there's nothing in these books that the President has found is not true.

O.C> Well, that's uh...

RICHARD I, uh...

O.C> that's a perspective that you....

RICHARD No...

O.C> ...have, but

RICHARD If they've found anything that's not true, it's their duty to, uh, have some, uh, editor, uh, write these things down and send me a copy, so I can retract it. If they're not true, I want to retract them.

DAVID It, it would seem so embarrassing to me to keep saying that, uh.

O.C> It's nearly impossible for you to interpret somebody else's point of view, separate and apart from that mind set that you've already established. And you've already established it, Richard. You've got it set in your mind. Clearly. As I've read and listened to what you've said even tonight, when there ARE, there ARE inaccuracies in Decision Time. There are inaccuracies in, uh, uh, The Saints at the Crossroads. But, from your perspective, or your personal interpretation, they're not inaccuracies.

RICHARD Well, if I have...

[unintelligible sound from unidentifiable voice]

RICHARD ... misquoted...if I've told a falsehood about these brethren, they owe it to me let me know this...because everything that I've said, there...there's been no denial, except one thing, and that is that I said the church is based on the scriptures, and I still say it. But I don't want to be in Brigham Young's position of saying that the Presidency has the right to supercede the scriptures. [two second pause] And that's where....that's the position they are in. [2.5 second pause] Now this problem's a lot bigger than, than me, that you're having to face. The problem is, as Mary Harlacher told me the other night at, uh, uh, Enoch Hill, that there are sensible people who are reading the scriptures, and praying about this. And, uh, they believe that these men are changing
the church. Of course, the Presidency themselves say they're changing the church. Whole
position papers on change. But the church cannot change.

O.C> Richard, would you believe that people walked out of that church the other night, and
stopped, and said to me they thought it was extremely unfortunate that they were not given a chance to listen to what I came there to present, because they wanted to hear what the church has written of explanation for it, all the way through, from the beginning of that book to the end, so they could be better informed, and so they could get on with it.

RICHARD They can buy the book.

O.C> But you, and your son, particularly, and Bob, and a couple of others, who occupied most of the time, persisted in bringing about what was ultimately, of course, the thing we didn't want, which was argument and debate, and they felt like they were denied that chance of really...

RICHARD Well,

O.C> ...having a chance to [trails off under the next response]

RICHARD This is completely polarized, uh, people came by me and patted me on the back for defending the faith. [one second pause] Many of them. More people patted me on the back for defending the faith than patted you on the back for defending the faith.

O.C> That may be, in that one congregation.

RICHARD [Very faint] Uh, huh. [Louder] So, I hope that the Presidency can see that they ARE splitting the church. And the reason they are splitting the church is because they're departing from the basis of the church, which is the Three Standard Books, and, uh, uh Joseph Smith's gospel. And, if they're going to depart from that, they are going to split the church.

DAVID Dad, please, uh...

RICHARD Just like Brigham Young, uh, did.

DAVID Please qualify that: "Joseph Smith's gospel."

RICHARD Well, I'm talking about the gospel that Joseph Smith gave.....

O.C> Joseph Smith didn't have a gospel. It's the gospel of Jesus Christ.

RICHARD That's right.

DAVID That's what my father meant when he ...

RICHARD We agree upon that. Yes, that's where we're agreed. That's what I meant. So, uh, this problem won't go away by silencing me. It won't go away if I should die. The, uh, problem is that the Presidency has departed from the faith. And they know this. And I think everybody knows this. Uh, Draper's, uh, telling it right here in this, uh, book about "Restoration Studies." [5 second pause] The church can't change. It...they can't.

O.C> What do you mean by that?

RICHARD I mean that we can't throw out, uh, the, uh, fact that the church is restored, the New Testament church was restored in 1830, and a few years following, of course, the time
[unintelligible]

DAVID Doctrines and procedures.

RICHARD ...the doctrines of the church, uh, you are very familiar with, are permanent. [One second pause] That goes for women in the priesthood; it's, uh, contrary to the, the, uh, gospel. [three second pause] At least you can see our position; maybe you can feel as sorry for us as we feel for you and the Brethren.

O.C> Richard, I have, uh, I have too much compassion, probably, to be in the job that I'm in; and I, I know that people who recognize that I've taken pretty strong positions in the past where silences were concerned wouldn't believe that, but, there isn't any place in my job description that identifies that part of my job is to silence men. There isn't any place in my job description for that.

[1.5 second pause]

RICHARD Uh...

O.C> But if you were in my position, and you recognized that responsibility of upholding the church...

RICHARD ...the church leaders...

O.C> and the, in my position upholding the church, both, and the church leaders, which is
intended to protect the church, I don't have any choice.

RICHARD Well, I don't either. So you do what you have to do, and I'll do what I have to do, and I can feel sorry for you. In fact, I, I pray that the Lord will help you somehow, to see that you're making a tremendous mistake. You are, uh, following a group of men, who are leading us away from the original beliefs of the church, and the New Testament church, even men who even say that the apostles were not, uh....

O.C> Why do, why do you think, Richard, that I don't believe that for a minute?

RICHARD You don't believe this first part of the guidelines that you wouldn't present down
here, uh, at Enoch Hill?

O.C> No. I don't have any...I don't have any...

RICHARD Why didn't you tell us you didn't believe in it?

O.C> I didn't, I didn't say I didn't believe in it, or did believe it. I didn't. I, I wasn't planning to present the first section.

RICHARD Yes?

O.C> I, uh, my intention was to get into two particular areas, but I didn't get a chance to do it.
The other matter that's there, was for the people to read anytime they wish to read it, and we could discuss it as they wish to discuss it, rather than debate and argue about it. I do have a problem with what may appear to be in some cases the need to revise it, rewrite it, for clarity's sake.

RICHARD Uh, huh

O.C> But I do not have a problem with the guidelines, per se.

RICHARD Well, I do.

O.C> But let me share the other thing with you that I just was saying. My conviction about the Restoration and the original church, I believe, is as great as yours is.

RICHARD Well, I, I'll accept that. I hope it's true, and I believe it is. I don't understand it...

O.C> But what...

RICHARD Can you...

O.C> what...

RICHARD ... understand my position?

O.C> No, I can't understand your position when it comes to the way in which other people have been misinterpreted. And you've written and attacked them in those ways. I don't, that's what I don't understand.

RICHARD You, know, if you saw a person who's bringing apostasy into the church, and he
wrote this, in his own words, wouldn't you be obligated to, uh...

O.C> I don't, I don't see that as apostasy, Richard.

RICHARD Well, of course I do, you see. This is different.... But if you saw somebody doing something wrong, it'd be your obligation to do what you could to help him, or at least to protect the saints.

O.C> Well, in my judgment, Richard, you've done a major disservice to the church.

RICHARD Uh, huh.

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