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Date Posted: 04:14:35 10/20/02 Sun
Author: Goktimus Prime
Subject: Cause for concern or over-reaction? (OzFormers cont'd)

The following link is to a part of the OzFormers forum. It started because a dealer/user called charlie has been consistently abbreviating Japanese as "Jap" -- and although I tolerated it at first, his continual consistent use of that word began to concern me, hence this thread was born:

http://www.xsorbit4.com/users/ozformer/index.cgi?board=sales&action=display&num=1033320046

Now I shall retort to Omega's post and ask you all to put your input into this discussion. I've brought this thread here as I'd like some of the more brighter and rational minds (as I've said in the past, it's clear that the majority of regular users here are of above average intelligence) in the international Transfan community to have some input into a very sensitive issue.


For a start, the fact that you view it as "flame bait" and then actually REPLY to it is evidence that yes, you either have to grow up or get over yourself.

Actually, it's evidence that I gave you the benefit of the doubt and thought that I could carry on with a rational discourse with you. I usually ignore flamebait entirely unless I think that there is a glimmer of actual intelligence in the poster.

Your viewpoint is not the be-all and end-all and I am not going to tip-toe around your ego because you want a chance to show off.

You have a lovely tendency to prance around hurling all sorts of accusations at people. How is this NOT flame baiting?? Is there any other purpose to that above statement other than to aggravate me? If so, do tell.

Oh, right, great! So because you said "grik" in a humourous light that makes it okay! Wonderful! We can ignore racism as long as it's FUNNY! I don't care if you went to school in GREECE, it's still offensive and irrespective of my nationality or yours it was inappropriate. And for that matter the connotation of the statement was ENTIRELY offensive, no middle ground, I said that my nick was taken from the greek alphabet and you replied with "hahahaha, sik grik! sup bro? sik!" and similair for three lines. that goes far beyond humour.

Have you accused dirge of being racist for calling TranzMetal "armo-scum" even though Tranz usually just laughs at it -- and the fact that it was Tranz himself who coined that phrase to us in the first place?

You fail to see the difference here -- my humourous statement was not made to vindicate Greek people or intentionally promote any negative image of them. It's no more offensive than the Guido Hatsis radio programme. It's not as if I'm going around saying that people should unite and eradicate the Greek people -- unlike the word "Jap" which was used as a slogan to promote the deaths of hundreds of Japanese people; and let's not forget that the Allied assault on Japan resulted in the largest number of civilian casualties. Or have you forgotten that Hiroshima was a simple town without any military installations?

Either way, if you find my humour to be distasteful, just tell me about it and I'll retract/apologise for my statement.

There is a prime difference between what you're saying to me and what I said to charlie. I told charlie that I find his words to be offensive because they carry racial connotations. I did NOT say that he was racist because of that. In other words, I found his abbreviation of the word "Japanese" to be in poor taste. People will make jokes that are in poor taste too. I am one of them. If you find my humour to in be in poor taste, then say so. Do not suddenly presume that I am racist just because I'm making jokes with a racial slant.

For example, take this joke...

Q: What do you call a Jewish Bridge?
A: Passover.

...is this racist? IMHO, it's not racist insofar as being anti-Semitic. It's a joke based on a pun with a racial connotation. It doesn't mean that I'm anti-Semitic. If I were, I probably wouldn't visit this channel nor talk to Transfans like Perceptor2 and Coyotek.

Users here may remember a few years ago I took offense to somebody's use of the word "gook" because it had racial connotation. This started a rather extensive argument because that user didn't mean to use that word in that light -- and in fact, I wasn't even aware that there was a non-racial alternative meaning to that word. But ultimately we agreed that the user was NOT anti-Asian but had merely used a word that can have anti-Asian nuances. The user apologised for her unintentional use of a word with racial connotations and we moved on.

Having friends of different ethnicity does not give you the right to pass judgement on everyone else.

And what judgement would that be?

But recognise that is was JUST laziness. It's not like the word "nigger" or "grik" that you have to go out of your way to say, it's an abbreviated term.

I DID recognise that it was just laziness. I've never said that it was otherwise. Merely that the use of this abbreviation carries an offensive connotation. I *NEVER* said that it was done intentionally by charlie.

Again, please stop throwing false accusations at me.
If you insist on accusing me about something, then quote me on it. Bring up some evidence.

Do you even have the message log from #transformers when I made the "Grik" comment? Because I doubt I would've used the word "'sup bro" since that's more rooted in stereotypical Afro-American Ebonic speech (which SilntBob frequently uses, even though he's not black -- you gonna get on his case now?) rather than stereotypical Greek-Australian speech.

Your whole post was about racial "minorities" being offended by racially slanderous terms. You accused charlie of using them too frequently, what possible reason could you have for doing that unless you considered the term racially offensive? the accusation was there, wether or not you actually came out and said it is immaterial. In the exact same way that you read into charlie's posts and decide that you've been offended by the implication of what he said, rather than by what he ACTUALLY said.

Hooray for pseudo-logic!!

Yes, I have accused charlie of using a word with anti-Japanese connotations too frequently. Explain how this equates to me accusing him of being a racist? Especially when I've gone and made disclaiming statements like "I don't mind the occasional use of the word -- you were probably being lazy... but you're starting to use it too frequently for my liking."

So as you can see -- if you bother reading my posts properly -- I've stated that my main gripe is that he's using this word too often -- in fact, I've never seen him type the word "Japanese" in full until this thread started.

Not if I can possibly help it,

Yet you feel qualified to reply and make accusations at me without needing to fully read everything I type.

I don't like having other peoples opinions shoved down my throat and called fact.

And yet you don't mind doing the same.
As I explained in a previous thread here about the notions of liberty and freedom of speech -- the entire reason why 19th Century scholars developed modern notions of liberty and freedom of speech is so that scholars could debate in order to discover the truth. In fact, that was the same factor that motivated Muslim and Christian scholars when they assembled in Spain to found the world's first university. It's one of the few times that Islam and Christianity ever got together to produce something for the betterment of humanity rather than its destruction.

However as Article 29 of the UNDHR also declares, Freedom of Speech is not universal as it does not apply to ideas which do not attempt to reveal the truth. This is why bigotry and other forms of irrationality are NOT guaranteed freedom of speech under the UNDHR. This is why forum moderators can and often *should* delete flame-baited posts.

You are not in your classroom, you cannot just dismiss a contrary argument as irrational because if I argue back you can send me to the principal's office.

First of all, how dare you presume that I would dismiss an argument as irrational merely because it contradicts my own. My students all know that they are welcome to disagree with me so long as they can substantiate their viewpoint -- and they have done so in the past and I will award marks to an answer that is well validated, even if I totally disagree with it. I find it extremely offensive that you wantonly question my professionalism (which is a VERY serious accusation) with virtually no evidence.

Secondly, I have treated you as a rational agent by bothering to reply to your posts -- and doing so in the spirit of a rational discussion. I've thrown no insults nor used any obscene language at you. I know that I do post aggressive arguments, but my arguments are not hostile -- there is a tremendous difference between an aggressive discussion and a hostile one -- I find your posts to be hostile since you find the need to personally insult me at every turn, rather than merely focussing on the discussion issues at hand. It's also a very unacademic way to conduct an argument. In a rational argument, you attack the opponent's argument, not the opponent themselves.


You have no special standing here and - as much as it would seem you wish to -

It is precisely these sort of blatantly hostile statements that you make that makes your arguments irrational. It is NOT because you disagree with my view.

What other purpose could that statement have?

you cannot present your opinion as fact and expect someone to swollow it.

I can if I back my statements up with justified rationale. Also, accepting someone's opinion is not the same as agreeing with it. For example, I have accepted the fact that Perceptor2 believes that there is a God. I have accepted his opinion. But almost everybody here knows that I sure don't agree with that opinion. Likewise he has accepted by opinion that I believe that there is no God, yet that not to say that he agrees with my opinion.

Next time instead of throwing out stories from your waning youth

Again, note the hostility in your post.

and sighting a 10 year old television program try writing something sensible. "I have a friend from here so my opinion is more valuable" isn't a rational argument.

Because why? You make a lot of statements but you seldomly follow them up with a rationale. That is highly illogical.

I was stating that my extensive exposure the Greek Australian culture means that I am not totally ignorant of that part of Australian society. Of course this was not the main basis of my argument, as it is only anecdotal evidence, which is the weakest of evidence there is -- this is why I also backed my arguments with more solid forms of evidence -- with actual referenecs such as links to Dictionary.com's definitions of "Aussie" and "Jap" -- where (and I am saying this for the THIRD time now) it clearly categorises the word "Jap" as offensive slang. Or have you totally ignored my bibliography?

Again, before you try flaming me again, keep the following in mind:
(1) I never accused charlie of being racist. Merely stated that his use of the word "Jap" carried racist connotations and that his continual and frequent use of that word had begun to offend me.
(2) Your arguments are not irrational simply because you disagree with me. They are irrational because they are not sufficiently justified with evidence. They have become irrational because you're allowing your emotions to dictate your thoughts. That's not to say that emotions have no place, but merely that your argument should be centred on logic/reason.

If you choose to continue flaming me and presenting more arguments backed by insulting psedo-logical statements, rather than actual logic, then I'll just ignore you. I will spend time trying to negotiate with someone who has the capacity to see reason (that does NOT mean that they have to agree with me), but I will not waste my time replying to a post that seems to serve no purpose than to insult me, rather than to find a solution to the issue at hand (that's called flame-baiting).

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