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Date Posted: 20:56:15 08/08/02 Thu
Author: Krot
Subject: Re: Ñòàðèíè
In reply to: Ìàêñèì 's message, "Re: Ñòàðèíè" on 11:58:40 08/08/02 Thu

+++ͳ ÿ íå çáèðàþñü ñêàíóâàòè ¿¿ êíèãó. Ðîçì³ð âåá-ñòîð³íêè âæå òàêèé âåëèêèé, ùî äîâîäèòüñÿ äóæå ðåòåëüíî âèáèðàòè ìàòåð³àë.+++

Äî ðå÷³, êîëè Âè ãîâîðèëè ïðî ³íôîðìàö³þ íà Âàøîìó ñàéò³ ïðî ë³òîïèñí³ ñïèñêè òà áèëèíè-ñòàðèíè, Âè ìàëè íà óâàç³ "²ñòîð³þ Óêðà¿íñüêî¿ Êóëüòóðè"? Ìîæåòå òî÷íî âêàçàòè äå ùå º? ß ÷èòàâ ùå äàëåêî íå âåñòü ñàéò, à Âàì êðàùå çíàòè. Áóäü ëàñêà.

+++Äåùî ïî òåêñòó. Äóæå ñóìí³âíèì âèãëÿäຠïåðåõ³ä ðóñèí³â çà òèñÿ÷³ ê³ëîìåòð³â çàäëÿ òîãî, ùîá âèïåðåäèòè ïîòóæí³ ñëîâåíî-ô³íñüêèé (íîâãîðîäñüêèé) òà êðèâèöüêèé êîëîí³çàö³éí³ ïîòîêè. Ïîòðàïëÿòè íà ϳâí³÷ òà ϳâí³÷íèé Ñõ³ä ìîãëè ëèøå ðóñèíè ïåâíîãî ôàõó - ïðîôåñ³éí³ â³éñüêîâ³, ¿õíÿ ïðèñëóãà, ìîíàõè-ïðîïîâ³äíèêè òîùî, òîáòî ëþäè, ïîòð³áí³ ì³ñöåâîìó ì³ñüêîìó êíÿç³âñòâó òà áîÿðñòâó äëÿ âñòàíîâëåííÿ ïåâíîãî ëàäó íà ùîéíî ïðèºäíàíèõ òåðèòîð³ÿõ. ×è ìîãëè âîíè áóòè ïåðøåïðîõ³äöÿìè? Íàâðÿä. Ö³ ëþäè (íó, ìîæå, îêð³ì ìîíàõ³â, àëå ò³, ç î÷åâèäíèõ ïðè÷èí, íå ìîãëè áóòè íîñ³ÿìè ñâ³òñüêîãî åïîñó) íå ïîòð³áí³ â ô³íñüêîìó ñåðåäîâèù³ ïîñò³éíî íà ïåðøèõ ïîðàõ.+++

Ñïðàâä³, ÿ íå âäàëî ñôîðìóëþâàâ... Ùîá óíèêíóòè ñóïåðå÷ëèâ³ñò³ êðàùå íàïèñàòè ïðîñòî ïðî ãîëîâíîâíó ðîëü ϳâíî÷³.

+++Çâåðí³òü óâàãó. Äìèòð³ºâà âèñóâຠäóæå ïðàâäîïîä³áíó ã³ïîòåçó ïîÿâè òà (ãîëîâíå!) çáåðåæåííÿ áèëèí (õî÷à íàñïðàâä³ âîíè "ñòàðèíè", ñàìå òàê âîíè íàçèâàëèñÿ, "áèëèíè" - íàçâà íåäàâíÿ). óïîòåçà áóëà îñòàòî÷íî ï³äòâåðäæåíà ï³ñëÿ ðîçãëÿäó òîãî ÿê³ ñàìå "ôàì³ë³¿", "âèù³" ÷è "íèæ÷³" çáåðåãàëè ñòàðèíè. Âîíà â³äíîñèòü "âèùèõ" äî íàùàäê³â "ñâîºçåì³ö³â", òîáòî êëàñó ëþäåé, ÿêèé ñòâîðþâàâñÿ ç ãîðîäÿí - âëàñíèê³â çåìåëü â "óåçäå". ² ðîáèòü äóæå ëîã³÷íèé, ³ ïåðåêîíëèâèé âèñíîâîê ïðî òå, ùî áèëèíè - öå òâîð÷³ñòü ì³ñòà (ñïåðøó Êèºâà), ÿêà ïîòðàïèëà äî ñåëÿíñüêîãî ñåðåäîâèùà, âîíî ëèøå é ìîãëî çáåðåãòè éîãî òàê äîâãî. Çâ³ñíî, ñòຠçðîçóì³ëèì, ùî ëèøå çàâäÿêè ñîö³àëüí³é ñòðóêòóð³ Íîâãîðîäà, â ÿêîìó "ñâîºçåìö³" â³ä³ãðàâàëè ðîëü ïîñåðåäíèêà ³ ìîãëè áèëèíè ïîòðàïèòè äî íàðîäó. ×è ìîãëè ðóñèíè áóòè ñåðåä "ñâîºçåìö³â"? Ìîæëèâî, àëå êîìó ì³ñöåâà âëàäà íàäàâàëà á îõî÷³øå çåìåëüí³ íàä³ëè?+++

Äî ðå÷³, ö³êàâó ï³äãîíêó ðîáèòü òîé æå "ïðàâäîëþá" :) Êîæèíîâ ï³äïèñóþ÷è íåïîâíèé óðèâîê ç Äìèòð³ºâîé:

"«ïåðâûìè øëè äåâóøêè «âûñîêèõ», «êîðåííûõ» ôàìèëèé... «âûñîòà» ôàìèëèè èëè «ðîäà» çàâèñåëà íå îò áîãàòñòâà, à îò äðåâíîñòè ðîäà. Ê âûñîêèì, äðåâíèì ðîäàì îòíîñèëèñü ïîòîìêè ñàìûõ ïåðâûõ ïîñåëåíöåâ... Óäàëîñü óñòàíîâèòü ñâÿçü,— ìåæäó ïðåäñòàâèòåëÿìè «âûñîêèõ» ôàìèëèé è ñêàçèòåëÿìè áûëèí. Áîëüøèíñòâî ïîñëåäíèõ, çà ðåäêèì èñêëþ÷åíèåì, ïðèíàäëåæàëè ê ïîòîìêàì «êîðåííûõ» ôàìèëèé... Ñðåäè íèõ îáÿçàòåëüíî íàõîäèëèñü ëþäè, â òîé èëè èíîé ñòåïåíè ñîõðàíèâøèå ïàìÿòü î ñàìèõ áûëèíàõ èëè ñëûøàâøèå î áûëèíàõ îò ñâîèõ ïðåäêîâ» (ñ. 57, 58)."

...ï³ä äîêàç êèºâî-ðóñüêîãî "ïåðâîïðîõîäñüòâà" â îáëè÷÷³ "êîðåííûõ" ðîä³â. Çðåøòîþ öå íå º äèâíèì, â³í ÿê äîêàç "âåëèêîãî ïåðåñåëåííÿ" öèòóº ïðèïóùåííÿ Êþ÷åâñüêîãî. :))

++Äàâàéòå ùå ðàç. Õòî ç ïðîñòèõ ðóñèí³â-ïîñåëÿí (³ íàâ³ùî?) ì³ã ïðàãíóòè äî Ïîìîð’ÿ? Ùî âîíè òàì ìîãëè çíàéòè? Ö³ííå õóòðî, ìîðæåâà ê³ñòêà... ³ âñå, ìîÿ óÿâà âè÷åðïàëàñÿ. ³ëüíó, äîñèòü ðîäþ÷ó çåìëþ ðóñèí ì³ã çíàéòè, ³ çíàõîäèâ, â Ðîñòîâî-Ñóçäàëüùèí³, êóäè çà äàíèìè àðõåîëî㳿 (òàê çâàí³ òðèáóñèíí³ ñêðîíåâ³ ê³ëüöÿ) ³ éøëà ÿêàñü êîëîí³çàö³ÿ ç Ðóñ³, êîëè òðîõè âãàìóâàëè âÿòè÷³â.+++

ßê Âè ðàí³øå çàóâàæèëè: ê³ëüê³ñòü êîëîí³ñò³â áóëà äîñèòü íåâåëèêà ³ êèì ñàìå âîíà îáìåæóâàëàñü. Àëå â äàíîìó âèïàäêó éäåòüñÿ íå ïðî ³ñíóâàííÿ ÿêîãîñü çíà÷íîãî ïåðåñåëåííÿ, à ïðîñòî çàãàëüíå ³ñíóâàííÿ áèëèí â Ðîñ³¿ âèêëþ÷íî çàâäÿêè ϳâíî÷³.

+++Äëÿ äîâåäåííÿ ïåðøîãî òâåðäæåííÿ âèêîðèñòîâóºòüñÿ ïîñèëàííÿ, ÿêå äîâîäèòü ëèøå äðóãå. ßêùî ïåðåâåðíóòè àð´óìåíò, òî ñàìå ç Ëàäîãè ìîãëè çä³éñíþâàòèñÿ "îïåðàö³¿" âàðÿã³â-íàõîäíèê³â. Ïî÷èòàòè ñó÷àñíèõ íîðìàí³ñò³â (íàïðèêëàä, ðîñ. ïåðåêëàä Ñ.Ôðàíêëèí, Ä.Øåïàðä. Íà÷àëî Ðóñè 750-1200), òàê âçàãàë³ í³ÿêî¿ îðãàí³çàö³¿ Íàääí³ïðÿíùèíè íå ³ñíóâàëî, à âñå çä³éñíþâàëè "ðóñè" ÿê êëàñ. ² âñå òîìó, ùî â Ëàäîç³ çíàõîäÿòü äóæå áàãàòî âàðÿçüêèõ ïðåäìåò³â.+++

Äÿêóþ.

Ïîñèëàííÿ â îñíîâíîìó ðîáèòüñÿ íà Ëàäîãó ÿê ì³ñòî êîòðå äî ê³íöÿ 11 ñòîë³òòÿ íàëåæàëî Êèºâó, çâ³äêè ³ ïðèïóùåííÿ "ïåðøî¿ êîëîí³çàö³¿".

+++Öå áóëî á ö³ëêîì ìîæëèâèì, ÿêáè áèëèíè íå ðîçä³ëÿëèñÿ íà äîñèòü ÷³òê³ ïåð³îäè. Íàéêðàùå ïðî öå ó Á.Ðèáàêîâà. ³í ðîçêëàâ ñþæåòè áèëèí çà ÷àñîâèìè ïåð³îäàìè ³ ïîêàçàâ, ùî çáåðåãëèñÿ ëèøå ò³ ç íèõ, ÿê³ â³äíîñÿòüñÿ äî ïåð³îä³â íàéò³ñí³øèõ â³äíîñèí Êèºâà ³ Íîâãîðîäà. +++

Ðîçóì³þ, ìàºòå íà óâàç³ 980-1015; 1096-1118; 1182-1199; Ñïðàâä³, Ðèáàêîâ ìຠðàö³þ.

+++Ñàìà Äìèòð³ºâà íàâîäèòü òóò ³ àëüòåðíàòèâó òàêîìó òâåðäæåííþ, çãàäóþ÷è ïðî ìîæëèâ³ ô³ííî-óãîðñüê³ øëÿõè çàïîçè÷åííÿ ñâàñòèêè, òîìó ïîñèëàííÿ íåïðàâîì³ðíå. À ÿê íà ìåíå, òî íàâ³òü ÿêáè áóëî ñêàçàíî ëèøå öå, òî äóæå õèñòêå ³ íåíàä³éíå. Áî ïîõîäæåííÿ ñâàñòèêè çâ’ÿçàíî äàëåêî íå ç³ ñëîâ’ÿíñüêèì ñâ³òîì. Òàê ñàìî ³ ³íø³ "çà÷³ïêè" íà ñòîð. 227-231 íå ìîæóòü ñëóãóâàòè íàä³éíèì ´ðóíòîì, ³ íàâ³òü â ìàñ³ íå ñëóãóþòü äîêàçîì.+++

Äÿêóþ. ß ìàâ ñóìí³âè, òîìó é çâåðíóâñÿ äî Âàñ, áî çíàâ ùî Âè òóò ðîçó쳺òåñü. Àëå ñïðàâà íàâ³òü íå â Âîëæñüêî¿ ñâàñòèö³, à â íåïåðåêîíëèâ³ò³ "Ëàäîæñüêî¿" òåîð³¿.

Çâè÷àéíî ïðèïóñêàâ, ùî öå ï³äãîíêà-ï³äòàñîâêà íà êøòàëò "âåëèêîãî ïåðåñåëííÿ" òà "ïåðåíîñó öåíòðó-ñòîëèö³", àëå îäíîçíà÷íî íå òàêà ãðóáà, áî â "ñïàäêîâèõ" "àðãóìåíòàõ" Êîæèíîâà, øîâ³í³ñò íàâ³òü íå âäàºòüñÿ äî íàóêîâèõ äîêàç³â, íàðåøò³ ïîêàçóþ÷è ãîëó ³äåîëîã³þ ïðîïîíóþ÷è "âèá³ð" ì³æ "ïîãîäèíùèíîþ", ³ "ë³áåðàëüíîþ ïîãîäèíùèíîþ"... Öå íå äóæå íàãàäóº ñó÷àñíó (!) ³ñòîðè÷íó ïðàöþ. :))

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