VoyForums
[ Show ]
Support VoyForums
[ Shrink ]
VoyForums Announcement: Programming and providing support for this service has been a labor of love since 1997. We are one of the few services online who values our users' privacy, and have never sold your information. We have even fought hard to defend your privacy in legal cases; however, we've done it with almost no financial support -- paying out of pocket to continue providing the service. Due to the issues imposed on us by advertisers, we also stopped hosting most ads on the forums many years ago. We hope you appreciate our efforts.

Show your support by donating any amount. (Note: We are still technically a for-profit company, so your contribution is not tax-deductible.) PayPal Acct: Feedback:

Donate to VoyForums (PayPal):

[ Login ] [ Contact Forum Admin ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time | Archives: 1, 2, [3], 4, 5, 6 ]

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Date Posted: 11:58:40 08/08/02 Thu
Author: Ìàêñèì
Subject: Re: Ñòàðèíè
In reply to: Krot 's message, "Re: Ñòàðèíè" on 09:05:11 08/08/02 Thu

ͳ ÿ íå çáèðàþñü ñêàíóâàòè ¿¿ êíèãó. Ðîçì³ð âåá-ñòîð³íêè âæå òàêèé âåëèêèé, ùî äîâîäèòüñÿ äóæå ðåòåëüíî âèáèðàòè ìàòåð³àë.

Äåùî ïî òåêñòó. Äóæå ñóìí³âíèì âèãëÿäຠïåðåõ³ä ðóñèí³â çà òèñÿ÷³ ê³ëîìåòð³â çàäëÿ òîãî, ùîá âèïåðåäèòè ïîòóæí³ ñëîâåíî-ô³íñüêèé (íîâãîðîäñüêèé) òà êðèâèöüêèé êîëîí³çàö³éí³ ïîòîêè. Ïîòðàïëÿòè íà ϳâí³÷ òà ϳâí³÷íèé Ñõ³ä ìîãëè ëèøå ðóñèíè ïåâíîãî ôàõó - ïðîôåñ³éí³ â³éñüêîâ³, ¿õíÿ ïðèñëóãà, ìîíàõè-ïðîïîâ³äíèêè òîùî, òîáòî ëþäè, ïîòð³áí³ ì³ñöåâîìó ì³ñüêîìó êíÿç³âñòâó òà áîÿðñòâó äëÿ âñòàíîâëåííÿ ïåâíîãî ëàäó íà ùîéíî ïðèºäíàíèõ òåðèòîð³ÿõ. ×è ìîãëè âîíè áóòè ïåðøåïðîõ³äöÿìè? Íàâðÿä. Ö³ ëþäè (íó, ìîæå, îêð³ì ìîíàõ³â, àëå ò³, ç î÷åâèäíèõ ïðè÷èí, íå ìîãëè áóòè íîñ³ÿìè ñâ³òñüêîãî åïîñó) íå ïîòð³áí³ â ô³íñüêîìó ñåðåäîâèù³ ïîñò³éíî íà ïåðøèõ ïîðàõ.

Çâåðí³òü óâàãó. Äìèòð³ºâà âèñóâຠäóæå ïðàâäîïîä³áíó ã³ïîòåçó ïîÿâè òà (ãîëîâíå!) çáåðåæåííÿ áèëèí (õî÷à íàñïðàâä³ âîíè "ñòàðèíè", ñàìå òàê âîíè íàçèâàëèñÿ, "áèëèíè" - íàçâà íåäàâíÿ). óïîòåçà áóëà îñòàòî÷íî ï³äòâåðäæåíà ï³ñëÿ ðîçãëÿäó òîãî ÿê³ ñàìå "ôàì³ë³¿", "âèù³" ÷è "íèæ÷³" çáåðåãàëè ñòàðèíè. Âîíà â³äíîñèòü "âèùèõ" äî íàùàäê³â "ñâîºçåì³ö³â", òîáòî êëàñó ëþäåé, ÿêèé ñòâîðþâàâñÿ ç ãîðîäÿí - âëàñíèê³â çåìåëü â "óåçäå". ² ðîáèòü äóæå ëîã³÷íèé, ³ ïåðåêîíëèâèé âèñíîâîê ïðî òå, ùî áèëèíè - öå òâîð÷³ñòü ì³ñòà (ñïåðøó Êèºâà), ÿêà ïîòðàïèëà äî ñåëÿíñüêîãî ñåðåäîâèùà, âîíî ëèøå é ìîãëî çáåðåãòè éîãî òàê äîâãî. Çâ³ñíî, ñòຠçðîçóì³ëèì, ùî ëèøå çàâäÿêè ñîö³àëüí³é ñòðóêòóð³ Íîâãîðîäà, â ÿêîìó "ñâîºçåìö³" â³ä³ãðàâàëè ðîëü ïîñåðåäíèêà ³ ìîãëè áèëèíè ïîòðàïèòè äî íàðîäó. ×è ìîãëè ðóñèíè áóòè ñåðåä "ñâîºçåìö³â"? Ìîæëèâî, àëå êîìó ì³ñöåâà âëàäà íàäàâàëà á îõî÷³øå çåìåëüí³ íàä³ëè?



«Îòâîäÿ Íîâãîðîäó áåçóñëîâíî çíà÷èòåëüíîå ìåñòî, ìû òåì íå ìåíåå óòâåðæäàåì, ÷òî íà÷àëüíûé ýòàï â îñâîåíèè Ñåâåðà — X—XI ââ... ìîæíî óâåðåííî íàçûâàòü è îáùåðóññêèì, ïîñêîëüêó â íåì â êà÷åñòâå ñàìîñòîÿòåëüíûõ êîìïîíåíòîâ ïðèíèìàëè ó÷àñòèå æèòåëè Þæíîé Ðóñè». (4)


Äàâàéòå ùå ðàç. Õòî ç ïðîñòèõ ðóñèí³â-ïîñåëÿí (³ íàâ³ùî?) ì³ã ïðàãíóòè äî Ïîìîð’ÿ? Ùî âîíè òàì ìîãëè çíàéòè? Ö³ííå õóòðî, ìîðæåâà ê³ñòêà... ³ âñå, ìîÿ óÿâà âè÷åðïàëàñÿ. ³ëüíó, äîñèòü ðîäþ÷ó çåìëþ ðóñèí ì³ã çíàéòè, ³ çíàõîäèâ, â Ðîñòîâî-Ñóçäàëüùèí³, êóäè çà äàíèìè àðõåîëî㳿 (òàê çâàí³ òðèáóñèíí³ ñêðîíåâ³ ê³ëüöÿ) ³ éøëà ÿêàñü êîëîí³çàö³ÿ ç Ðóñ³, êîëè òðîõè âãàìóâàëè âÿòè÷³â.


Öå ðå÷åííÿ íåïðàâäèâå:
"(1)²ñíóþòü äîêàçè òîãî, ùî êîëîí³çàö³ÿ Ïîìîð’ÿ, äå ìåøêàëè ô³íñüê³ ïëåìåíà, éøëà ç Óêðà¿íè-Ðóñ³, ÷åðåç Ëàäîãó, à íå ç Íîâãîðîäà | (2) ÿêèé ïîñòàâ ò³ëüê³ â ñåðåäèí³ 10 ñòîë³òòÿ. (5)"

Äëÿ äîâåäåííÿ ïåðøîãî òâåðäæåííÿ âèêîðèñòîâóºòüñÿ ïîñèëàííÿ, ÿêå äîâîäèòü ëèøå äðóãå. ßêùî ïåðåâåðíóòè àð´óìåíò, òî ñàìå ç Ëàäîãè ìîãëè çä³éñíþâàòèñÿ "îïåðàö³¿" âàðÿã³â-íàõîäíèê³â. Ïî÷èòàòè ñó÷àñíèõ íîðìàí³ñò³â (íàïðèêëàä, ðîñ. ïåðåêëàä Ñ.Ôðàíêëèí, Ä.Øåïàðä. Íà÷àëî Ðóñè 750-1200), òàê âçàãàë³ í³ÿêî¿ îðãàí³çàö³¿ Íàääí³ïðÿíùèíè íå ³ñíóâàëî, à âñå çä³éñíþâàëè "ðóñè" ÿê êëàñ. ² âñå òîìó, ùî â Ëàäîç³ çíàõîäÿòü äóæå áàãàòî âàðÿçüêèõ ïðåäìåò³â.


"Ìîæíà ïðèéòè äî âèâîäó Ðóñüêà êóëüòóðà (â ò.÷. áèëèíè) ïðèéøëè íà ϳâí³÷ (ÿê ïðèêëàä Ïîìîð’ÿ) ñàìå ç Êèºâà, à íå Íîâãîðîäà."

Öå áóëî á ö³ëêîì ìîæëèâèì, ÿêáè áèëèíè íå ðîçä³ëÿëèñÿ íà äîñèòü ÷³òê³ ïåð³îäè. Íàéêðàùå ïðî öå ó Á.Ðèáàêîâà. ³í ðîçêëàâ ñþæåòè áèëèí çà ÷àñîâèìè ïåð³îäàìè ³ ïîêàçàâ, ùî çáåðåãëèñÿ ëèøå ò³ ç íèõ, ÿê³ â³äíîñÿòüñÿ äî ïåð³îä³â íàéò³ñí³øèõ â³äíîñèí Êèºâà ³ Íîâãîðîäà.

Öèòóâàííÿ íåïîâíå:
«ñ þæíîðóññêèìè îáëàñòÿìè ñâÿçàíû ñâàñòè÷åñêèå ýëåìåíòû îðíàìåíòà, äîæèâøèå äî íàøèõ äíåé â èçäåëèÿõ ïðèêëàäíîãî èñêóññòâà Ìåçåíè — âÿçàíûõ âàðåæêàõ, íîñêàõ, òêàíûõ ïîÿñàõ è ò. ï.» (9)
Ñàìà Äìèòð³ºâà íàâîäèòü òóò ³ àëüòåðíàòèâó òàêîìó òâåðäæåííþ, çãàäóþ÷è ïðî ìîæëèâ³ ô³ííî-óãîðñüê³ øëÿõè çàïîçè÷åííÿ ñâàñòèêè, òîìó ïîñèëàííÿ íåïðàâîì³ðíå. À ÿê íà ìåíå, òî íàâ³òü ÿêáè áóëî ñêàçàíî ëèøå öå, òî äóæå õèñòêå ³ íåíàä³éíå. Áî ïîõîäæåííÿ ñâàñòèêè çâ’ÿçàíî äàëåêî íå ç³ ñëîâ’ÿíñüêèì ñâ³òîì. Òàê ñàìî ³ ³íø³ "çà÷³ïêè" íà ñòîð. 227-231 íå ìîæóòü ñëóãóâàòè íàä³éíèì ´ðóíòîì, ³ íàâ³òü â ìàñ³ íå ñëóãóþòü äîêàçîì.


"×îìó íå çáåð³ãëèñÿ áèëèíè â Óêðà¿í³?"
Ç òåî𳿠ì³ñüêîãî ïîõîäæåííÿ áèëèí (çà Äìèòð³ºâîþ) ìîæíà ïîÿñíèòè ³ öå.

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

[ Contact Forum Admin ]

Forum timezone: GMT-8
VF Version: 3.00b, ConfDB:
Before posting please read our privacy policy.
VoyForums(tm) is a Free Service from Voyager Info-Systems.
Copyright © 1998-2019 Voyager Info-Systems. All Rights Reserved.