VoyForums
[ Show ]
Support VoyForums
[ Shrink ]
VoyForums Announcement: Programming and providing support for this service has been a labor of love since 1997. We are one of the few services online who values our users' privacy, and have never sold your information. We have even fought hard to defend your privacy in legal cases; however, we've done it with almost no financial support -- paying out of pocket to continue providing the service. Due to the issues imposed on us by advertisers, we also stopped hosting most ads on the forums many years ago. We hope you appreciate our efforts.

Show your support by donating any amount. (Note: We are still technically a for-profit company, so your contribution is not tax-deductible.) PayPal Acct: Feedback:

Donate to VoyForums (PayPal):

[ Login ] [ Contact Forum Admin ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time | Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, [5], 6 ]

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Date Posted: 10:19:17 03/20/02 Wed
Author: Òðåéòÿê
Subject: ðàõóþ÷è íà òâîþ êîíöåïö³þ ...
In reply to: Ëåì 's message, "Re: ³íäóëü´åíö³ÿ?" on 02:46:44 03/19/02 Tue

1. Ñïî÷àòêó ïðî Êóáàíü

--- Îé ùîñü ÿ äóæå ñóìí³âàþñÿ!.. Òè ¿õ áà÷èâ? Öå ÿêàñü äèêà áàíäà. Íó ÷èñòà òîá³ Îðäà. ² øàëåíèé ãðàäóñ êñåíîôî᳿ (áàéäóæå, ÷å÷åíö³, óêðà¿íö³, æèäè...). ßê íà ìåíå, íàéáëèæ÷èé àíàëîã ç ³ñòî𳿠- òóðåöüê³ ÿíè÷àðè (áåç æîäíèõ îö³íî÷íèõ çíà÷åíü, ïðîñòî ÿê ôåíîìåí). Öå ÿêîñü íå ï³ääàºòüñÿ âèçíà÷åííþ ó íàö³îíàëüíèõ òåðì³íàõ, ùîá á òàì òîé Ãóì³ëüîâ íå ïèñàâ. Öå ÿêèéñü îêðåìèé ôåíîìåí.

Íàñïðàâä³ Ãóì³ëüîâ áàãàòî ÷îãî íàïèñàâ, íå çàáóâ é ïðî òàê³ ñóñï³ëüí³ ôîðìàö³¿, ÿê-îò òóðåöüê³ ÿíè÷àðè. Îòæå, âèçíà÷åííþ âñå-òàêè ï³ääàºòüñÿ, ùîá òè òóò íå ãîâîðèâ :)

Ùîäî êñåíîôî᳿: êñåíîôîá³ÿ íå áóâຠáåç ãðóíòó, ¿õíÿ íåíàâèñòü äî ÷å÷åíö³â ìåí³ ö³ëêîì çðîçóì³ëà, âîíà, äî ðå÷³, çóìîâëåíà ñàìîþ ³ñòîð³ºþ êóáàíö³â: âæå â³ä ïåðøèõ ðîê³â ïîñåëåííÿ íà Êóáàí³ êîçàêè ìóñèëè ïîñò³éíî âîþâàòè ç "÷åðêåñàìè" (ï³ä "÷åðêåñàìè" òîä³ ðîçóì³ëè âñ³ êàâêàçüê³ ã³ðñüê³ íàðîäè âçàãàë³). Ç æèäàìè òàê ñàìî çðîçóì³ëî, íå îñòàííþ ðîëþ (íå âïåâíåíèé, ùî ñàìå ïåðøó, àëå òî÷íî íå îñòàííþ :)) â³ä³ãðàëè òóò ñëàâí³ óêðà¿íñüê³ òðàäèö³¿ ç áèòòÿ æèä³â (ñïîìèíè ïðî Õìåëüíè÷÷èíó, Ãàéäàìà÷÷èíó òîä³ áóëè äóæå ñâ³æ³). ϳçí³øå äîäàëîñÿ ùå é ìîñêîâñüêå ÷îðíîñîòåíñòâî. Òà âðåøò³ ¿õíþ êñåíîôîá³þ ùîäî óêðà¿íöâ òè ÿâíî ïåðåá³ëüøóºø. Íå òðåáà çàáóâàòè, ùî åòí³÷íî-óêðà¿íñüêîãî íàñåëåííÿ òàì áëèçüêî ïîëîâèíè, à ðåøòà - ïåðåâàæíî ìîñêàë³ ("³íîãîðîäí³º"). Ïðèòîìó äðóã³ çîñåðåäæåí³ ñàìå â ì³ñòàõ (ÿê, äî ðå÷³, é â Óêðà¿í³), à õòî ìຠïåðåâàãó, òî, ãàäàþ, íå òðåáà äîäàòêîâî ïîÿñíþâàòè. Òîìó ÿ íå äèâëþñÿ íà ïåðåñïåêòèâó â³äðîäæåííÿ óêðà¿íñòâà Êóáàí³ íàäòî ñêåïòè÷íî, ïîä³áíî äî òåáå. Öå íå ÿêàñü íåìîæëèâà ð³÷ - çà ïåâíèõ, ñïðèÿòëèâèõ óìîâ Êóáàíü ìîæå â³äðîäèòèñÿ, ³ òî äîñèòü øâèäêî. Ìîÿ äóìêà íå º áåçï³äñòàâíîþ, é ãðóíòóºòüñÿ íà "ïîëüîâèõ äîñë³äæåííÿõ", õî÷ ³ íåâåëèêèõ. Òàì º ÿê³ñü øàíñè, é íàâ³òü íà ñüîãîäí³ âîíè íå íàäòî äàëåê³ â³ä øàíñ³â íà â³äðîäæåííÿ óêðà¿íñòâà ó òîìó æ Äîíáàñ³.


2. Äî êîíöåïö³¿ òà ¿¿ ëîã³÷íîãî çàâåðøåííÿ

--- Òî áóäåìî íà Áîãäàíà îçèðàòèñÿ?:) ×è íå çàáàãàòî ÷åñò³?

ßê ïîðàõóâàòè ïî-òâîºìó, òî íå çàáàãàòî :) Àäæå â³í ðåïðåçåíòóº äóìêó òèõ, õòî "íå âñòèã ñàìîóñâ³äîìèòèñü". ß òàê çðîçóì³â, òàêèõ "íåñàìîóñâ³äîìëåíèõ" º äóæå áàãàòî, ÷è íå òàê?

--- ßê³ âîíè â á³ñà çðàäíèêè, ÿêùî âîíè í³êîëè íå áóëè óêðà¿íöÿìè?.. Êîãî æ âîíè çðàäèëè?

Îñü ìè é ï³ä³éøëè äî íàéö³êàâ³øî¿ òî÷êè â ðîçìîâ³: ÿêùî, çà òîáîþ, êóáàíö³ òî º îêðåìà íàö³ÿ, ÷è ÿêèéñü-òàì ôåíîìåí, òî ÷îì áè âæå íå çðîáèòè òîá³ íàñòóïíèé êðîê, é íå ñêàçàòè: îò³ âñ³ "çðàäíèêè" (íàçèâàþ ÷èñòî óìîâíî, áî òðåáà æ ÿêîñü ¿õ íàçèâàòè) öå òàê ñàìî îêðåìà íàö³ÿ, ÷è ùå ÿêèéñü ôåíîìåí, à äî óêðà¿íö³â âîíè íå ìàþòü æîäíîãî ñòîñóíêó. Õàé áóäóòü "ôåíîìåíîì". (À íàñïðàâä³ - ÷àñòèíîþ âåëèêîãî ðîñ³éñêîãî íàðîäó).

--- Öå íå âèíà ¿õ, à á³äà. ßê ÿ âæå ïèñàâ, íåñïðèÿòëèâ³ ³ñòîðè÷í³ îáñòàâèíè.

Äóæå äîáðå. Õàé áóäå "á³äîþ", ÷è êðàùå "â³äì³ííèì áà÷åííÿì" (â³äâåðòî êàæó÷è, ðàõóþ÷è íà òâîþ êîíöåïö³þ, ìåí³ òàê á³ëüøå ïîäîáàºòüñÿ). Ìàþòü ïðàâî, âðåøò³-ðåøò. Îáñòàâèíè òàì, ÷è ùå ùî - íåâàæëèâî. Ìàºìî òå, ùî ìàºìî, ÿê ãîâîðèâ Êðàâ÷óê.

--- âîíè ×ÅÑÍΠ²ÐßÒÜ, ùî "ðóññêàÿ íàö³ÿ ºä³íà".

×óäîâî! Çíà÷èòü âîíè òåæ "ðóññ곺", ÷è íå òàê? Âîíè ñàì³ ñåáå ââàæàþòü ÷àñòèíî¿ ö³º¿ íàö³¿. Òî íåõàé íèìè é áóäóòü. Ðîñ³ÿíàìè. Ìîñêàëÿìè (öå ç ïîãëÿäó "óêðà¿íöÿ â àâàíãàðä³" :), çà òâîºþ òåðì³íîëî㳺þ). Íàâ³ùî íåùàñí³ ìóñÿòü ââàæàòèñÿ óêðà¿íöÿìè, êîëè âîíè íàñïðàâä³ ìîñêàë³? Öå æ íåïîäîáñòâî! Ïîðóøåííÿ ñâÿùåííèõ ïðàâ ëþäèíè. Äàéòå æ ëþäèí³ áóòè ñîáîþ! Ëþäèíà õî÷å áóòè ìîñêàëåì. Âîíà õî÷å ïðèíàëåæàòè äî âåëèêî¿ íàö³¿. Òî äàéòå ¿é òàêå ïðàâî, çàïèø³òü ¿é â ïàøïîðò³, ùî âîíà - ìîñêàëü, äîäàéòå äî ¿¿ íåçðó÷íîãî õîõëÿöüêîãî ïð³çâèùà -â ³ íàé áóäå ùàñëèâîþ íà â³êè-â³÷í³. Íàâ³ùî ñèëêóâàòè?

Íåõàé óêðà¿íö³ áóäóòü ìàëåíüêîþ íàö³ºþ. Çðåøòîþ, çà ôàêòîì â ö³é âåðñ³¿ óêðà¿íö³ ³ º ìàëåíüêîþ íàö³ºþ, ê³ëüê³ñíî ìåíøîþ çà òèõ æå ïîëÿê³â, áëèçüêîþ äî ðóìóí³â.

--- Äóæå åôåêòèâíèé ïîëåì³÷íèé ïðèéîì:)

Àëå æ ìàÿ÷íÿ. Òîá³ ñïðàâä³ äóæå ö³êàâî ïîäèñêóâàòè ñàìå ïðî öåé "³ìïåð³àë³çì"?

--- Íå éäåòüñÿ ïðî ï³äïîðÿäêóâàííÿ, âîíè õî÷óòü ðóëèòè ðàçîì, áî â³ðÿòü, ùî º ºäèíèì íàðîäîì.

Äèâ. íàïèñàíå âèùå. ßêùî âîíè º ÷àñòèíîþ ðîñ³éñüêîãî íàðîäó, òî íåõàé áóäóòü íåþ îô³ö³éíî.

--- Âîíè ââàæàþòü, ùî ðîñ³éñüêó ìîâó áóëî ñòâîðåíî â Êèºâ³ (ïî÷èòàé â÷åíîãî Àáàêóìà), ³ ùî öå á³ëüøå óêðà¿íñüêà ìîâà, í³æ ìîñêîâñüêà.

Íó öå æ â³äâåðòî àíòè³ñòîðè÷íà êîíöåï³ÿ. "Â÷åíèé Àáàêóì" òà éîãî ïðèÿòåë³ ñàì³ öå óñâ³äîìëþþòü, àëå ¿õí³é ðîçðàõóíîê íà òåìíó ìîñêâîô³ëüñêó ìàñó, ÿêà íå ðîçó쳺òüñÿ íå òå ùîá íà ³ñòîð³¿, à é ïî-ìîñêîâñüêè ïèñàòè ÿê ñë³ä íå â쳺 :)

--- Öèì çàâæäè çàê³í÷óºòüñÿ. À äàë³ ò³ëüêè ãàëèöüêèé ñåïàðàòèçì:(.

ß òàê ãàäàþ, ùî íå òðåáà îáìåæóâàòèñü ò³ëüêè äî Ãàëè÷èíè. Òðåáà âçÿòè ç ñîáîþ âñþ "Ðóñü" çà âèçíà÷åííÿì Ìàêñèìà. À "ïîëîâåöüêèé ñòåï", çà éîãî æ âèçíà÷åííÿì, íåõàé é íàäàë³ áóäå "ôåíîìåíîì". Íó ñïðàâä³, ìîæå ãîä³ îäíå îäíîãî ñèëêóâàòè?

Çðåøòîþ, ñïðîáóé ñàì ñîá³ ïîðàõóâàòè: òâîÿ êîíöåïö³ÿ íàâðÿä ÷è ìîæå ìàòè ³íøå ëîã³÷íå çàâåðøåííÿ: ÿêùî "çðàäíèêè" ââàæàþòü ñåáå "ðóññê³ì³", ³ ìàþòü íà öå ïðàâî (ïðàâî "â³äì³ííîãî áà÷åííÿ"), à ðåøòà - "óêðà¿íöÿìè", òî ìàºìî äâ³ íàö³¿ â îäí³é äåðæàâ³, äî òîãî æ á³ëüø-ìåíø ñêîíöåíòðîâàí³ ïî îêðåìèõ ðåã³îíàõ íèí³øíüî¿ äåðæàâè "Óêðà¿íà". Òîä³ ÷è íå äîö³ëüíî öèì íàöÿì ìèðíî ðîç³éòèñÿ, êîæíà íà ñâ³é á³ê?

P.S. Äîêëàäí³øå ïðî "Ðóñü" òà "ñòåï" â³äïèøó â ³íø³é ã³ëö³. ² æîäíî¿ ìåòàô³çèêè :)

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

[ Contact Forum Admin ]

Forum timezone: GMT-8
VF Version: 3.00b, ConfDB:
Before posting please read our privacy policy.
VoyForums(tm) is a Free Service from Voyager Info-Systems.
Copyright © 1998-2019 Voyager Info-Systems. All Rights Reserved.