VoyForums
[ Show ]
Support VoyForums
[ Shrink ]
VoyForums Announcement: Programming and providing support for this service has been a labor of love since 1997. We are one of the few services online who values our users' privacy, and have never sold your information. We have even fought hard to defend your privacy in legal cases; however, we've done it with almost no financial support -- paying out of pocket to continue providing the service. Due to the issues imposed on us by advertisers, we also stopped hosting most ads on the forums many years ago. We hope you appreciate our efforts.

Show your support by donating any amount. (Note: We are still technically a for-profit company, so your contribution is not tax-deductible.) PayPal Acct: Feedback:

Donate to VoyForums (PayPal):

[ Login ] [ Contact Forum Admin ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time ]

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Date Posted: 11:26:05 07/18/00 Tue
Author: SwimmingUpstream
Subject: Re: Just Imagine
In reply to: Lurker 's message, "Re: Just Imagine" on 11:23:12 07/18/00 Tue

Dear Lurker,

Your post lead us into the Heart of Darkness that is "state of nature"
theory. You put the question admirably, and I re-post it here for clarity:

Let me pose a question to you.

Do I own myself completely or not?

This is the "razor" I use to dissect a persons 'politics'.

If you can lay claim to 2 years or 4 years of my life, what is to stop you
from taking all of it? Your sense of "justice"? "Societys" sense of justice?

SU, I either own my life or I do not. There is no middle ground. None at all.


I answer, one acquires obligations when one participates in society.

I am willing to grant, arguendo, that a child incurs no debt to his parent's
(or society) because the child did not ask to be born, and the parents took
on the reponsibilities for the child with some approval from the society. I
do not think the grounds for this dispensation are strong, but as i said I
am willing to grant it arguendo.

So, let us take up your question from the point in an individual's existence
when he is fully responsible.

So long as the individual partakes of no benefit that acrues as a result of
association with others, that individual "owns" himself, free and clear.

But something happens between individuals when they enter into association.
OWK referred to it as "reciprocity". I think "reciprocity is too limited a
description of the event, for "reciprocity" implies only what is happeneing
between two parties. The American Founders used the word "mutually" at the
end of the Declaration of Independence, and I think that word describes what
goes on in society better.

If you live in bear country, and cannot cut the wood you need without others
protecting the area you are in from grizzlies, what portion of the wood you
cut have you "earned" and what portion justly goes to those who protected
the area? If you knew all the persons who protected you, a simple contract
could be made between you all. But, as in most societies nowadays, you don't
know all the persons and cannot enter into a simple contract with each of
them.

This example is simple, society is very complex. But it points out that we
have obligations that we cannot readily discharge in this day and age by
mere contractual relations.

I will elaborate on this as you think I need to, but I think it suffices for
now to answer your question. When a responsible individual is willing to
live in total isolation, without any benefit (materially, educationally,
etc.) from others he has no obligations, and is free and clear. When he
partakes of the benefits of society he acquires obligations, that society is
justified in holding him to.

Kindest Regards

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

Post a message:
This forum requires an account to post.
[ Create Account ]
[ Login ]
[ Contact Forum Admin ]

Forum timezone: GMT-8
VF Version: 3.00b, ConfDB:
Before posting please read our privacy policy.
VoyForums(tm) is a Free Service from Voyager Info-Systems.
Copyright © 1998-2019 Voyager Info-Systems. All Rights Reserved.