The troops must rally and keep this thread at the forefront of the noble fight!.....nom -- The Bulldawg BBQ Flamefest

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Date Posted: 09:41:18 01/15/03 Wed
Author: :-)
Subject: The troops must rally and keep this thread at the forefront of the noble fight!.....nom
In reply to: beth2 's message, "JD: despicable sadist, or wildly inept trainer . . .or both?" on 07:47:56 01/08/03 Wed

>Please forgive me for "dragging the argument" from one
>board to another but I really think I have a good
>reason this time. Hard to confront someone when you
>know he's got his finger on the delete button.
>
>"In all fairness, we started the AmBull off in
>tracking at the age of twelve weeks--doing baby step
>tracks with food in each track. This is pretty typical
>of how we start off all dogs for schutzhund and/or AKC
>tracking. Ring prospects are done a bit differently
>since refusal of food is an integral part of their
>overall trial/testing.
>
>The American Bulldog did okay on his tracking by the
>time he was old enough to trial--scored on average in
>the low 80s (have to have a minimum of 70 to pass and
>move on to the obedience portion of the trial). In
>this, he was pretty consistent--especially considering
>he had a novice handler/owner working him. I once
>worked him for several weeks prior to his trialing for
>his Sch I title and managed to get him a score in the
>upper 80s.
>
>Obedience was another story--we were lucky to even get
>the minimal score of 70. And this was with almost two
>full years of hard training. The send-away (voraus)
>exercise was virtually non-existent as there was no
>control over the dog once he was a certain distance
>away from the handler. I finally resigned myself to
>taking a severe penalty by "platzing" him when he had
>moved no further than maybe ten feet away.
>
>His drive and courage and willingness to protect and
>attack during the protection portions was never in
>question, however he was very slow to out--especially
>so on the courage test when he was forty meters away
>from the handler. He was dismissed from the field on
>several occasions when he flat refused to out and his
>owner had to choke him off the sleeve, which the
>helper had slipped.
>
>But through perseverance and determination, we did
>finally manage to put a Sch I on him after which the
>club (and the awarding judge) strongly recommended
>retiring the dog as there was simply no way he was
>ever going to get a Sch II.
>
>The AmStaff that we put a Sch II on was a horrid
>tracker--had no interest at all, and you do not
>force-track a dog like an AmStaff. For the record, I
>am not a proponent of force-tracking any dog, but I
>have made rare exceptions over the years when the dog
>was capable of scoring in the mid to high 90s
>elsewhere in the trial.
>
>But this AmStaff simply did not "get it" when it came
>to even the cursory basics of tracking. Other AmStaffs
>that came through the club displayed the same
>tendencies. Generally, there was just no interest (or
>drive) displayed by them on the tracking field. If I
>remember correctly, this particular dog never scored
>above a 75 on both occasions in which we put the
>titles on her.
>
>Obedience was hot and cold--very inconsistent dog. Her
>owner was an experienced trainer and handler, and
>pretty knowledgeable about the breed. Her other breed
>was Boxers--another dog this day and age that is
>difficult to put a schutzhund title on (even though
>for the longest time in Germany, they were second in
>popularity only to the GSD for schutzhund work).
>
>This AmStaff's biggest problem in the obedience was
>heeling on-leash--heeling off-leash was not a problem,
>but anytime she had a leash on her, it was a constant
>tug. That is where she also lost the most points. The
>retrieving exercises were iffy as well--although her
>ability to clear the brush hurdle and negotiate the
>seven-foot wall was pure poetry in motion.
>
>But this dog's biggest problem in obedience was
>maintaining the long down while the other dog was
>executing its obedience routine. Depending on her
>"mood," she was bad for breaking the long-down and
>going after the other dog--especially during the other
>dog's long recall or send-away.
>
>We finally had to resort to the Tritronics e-collar
>with a very high corrective setting and continuous
>correction--often up to the full ten seconds. This dog
>had to be brought to her knees, shrieking before we
>were finally able to have confidence that she could
>maintain the long-down without going after the other
>dog.
>
>And again, this dog was owned by a woman experienced
>in both training and the breed.
>
>Her protection work was sharp, swift and
>precise--right up until it was time to out the sleeve.
>Most dogs learn to out the sleeve fairly quickly once
>that portion of the training is undertaken, but both
>of the bulldogs hated releasing the sleeve. We were
>prepared for this, with them being bulldogs, but it
>took a lot longer to get them ready for trial than it
>did with the other (breeds of) dogs.
>
>Overall, while there are a handful of the bulldog
>types that have managed to earn schutzhund titles
>(none to my knowledge have ever earned a FR III or
>made it through the Dutch Ring or French Campagne),
>they are not a breed suited to that type of training
>or work.
>
>I share the opinion of many other working dog trainers
>who say that the "talents and abilities" of today's
>bulldog breeds are very limited when compared to the
>same "talents and abilities" of other breeds from the
>Working and Herding groups--and with a few exceptions,
>the Sporting Group (Labs, Goldens Weimeraners).
>
>But then again, today's Dachschund is pretty limited
>as well, as are a lot of breeds.
>
>Which is why I have never heard of working dogs or
>herding dogs being referred to as "game," but rather
>as having strong drive.
>
>Funny thing in the Doberman world (AKC side of it,
>that is) is there is a test done at Doberman
>specialties called the Working Aptitude Evaluation
>(WAE). The creator of that test is Vic Montelon who is
>well regarded in the DPCA. Vic breeds Dobermans that
>Europeans come over HERE to purchase and then take
>back to Germany and France for schutzhund and ring
>work. In other words, he breeds Dobermans with correct
>temperament.
>
>In the final portion of the WAE, the Doberman and its
>handler are confronted by the "weird stranger" who
>acts menacingly towards both the dog and the handler.
>The dog is expected to show every indication that he
>is ready to mix it up with the weird stranger in
>defense of both himself and his handler. If you fail
>that portion of the test, you fail the entire WAE. So
>the dog isn't expected to show instant aggression--he
>is required to.
>
>Yet, dog aggression will get you and your dog
>dismissed from the grounds. Dog aggression that a
>schutzhund or campagne judge deems threatening will
>not only get you dismissed from the trial, but it can
>also disqualify your dog from further competitions. In
>instances where such a dog actually does attack
>another competing dog, it is not unusual for that dog
>to be permanently barred from further competition and
>its registration papers revoked.
>
>I admire a dog with strong drives--but only if that
>dog also has the capacity to be under constant,
>reliable voice-only control. If it doesn't, then it is
>of absolutely zero value to the working dog's world.
>
>--JD"
>
>http://www.sunshineband.org/cgi-bin/boards/dogpark.pl?r
>ead=28655

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why did you let this important thread get buried on page two???????? -- :-), 15:55:37 03/20/03 Thu