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Date Posted: 07:47:56 01/08/03 Wed
Author: beth2
Subject: JD: despicable sadist, or wildly inept trainer . . .or both?

Please forgive me for "dragging the argument" from one board to another but I really think I have a good reason this time. Hard to confront someone when you know he's got his finger on the delete button.

"In all fairness, we started the AmBull off in tracking at the age of twelve weeks--doing baby step tracks with food in each track. This is pretty typical of how we start off all dogs for schutzhund and/or AKC tracking. Ring prospects are done a bit differently since refusal of food is an integral part of their overall trial/testing.

The American Bulldog did okay on his tracking by the time he was old enough to trial--scored on average in the low 80s (have to have a minimum of 70 to pass and move on to the obedience portion of the trial). In this, he was pretty consistent--especially considering he had a novice handler/owner working him. I once worked him for several weeks prior to his trialing for his Sch I title and managed to get him a score in the upper 80s.

Obedience was another story--we were lucky to even get the minimal score of 70. And this was with almost two full years of hard training. The send-away (voraus) exercise was virtually non-existent as there was no control over the dog once he was a certain distance away from the handler. I finally resigned myself to taking a severe penalty by "platzing" him when he had moved no further than maybe ten feet away.

His drive and courage and willingness to protect and attack during the protection portions was never in question, however he was very slow to out--especially so on the courage test when he was forty meters away from the handler. He was dismissed from the field on several occasions when he flat refused to out and his owner had to choke him off the sleeve, which the helper had slipped.

But through perseverance and determination, we did finally manage to put a Sch I on him after which the club (and the awarding judge) strongly recommended retiring the dog as there was simply no way he was ever going to get a Sch II.

The AmStaff that we put a Sch II on was a horrid tracker--had no interest at all, and you do not force-track a dog like an AmStaff. For the record, I am not a proponent of force-tracking any dog, but I have made rare exceptions over the years when the dog was capable of scoring in the mid to high 90s elsewhere in the trial.

But this AmStaff simply did not "get it" when it came to even the cursory basics of tracking. Other AmStaffs that came through the club displayed the same tendencies. Generally, there was just no interest (or drive) displayed by them on the tracking field. If I remember correctly, this particular dog never scored above a 75 on both occasions in which we put the titles on her.

Obedience was hot and cold--very inconsistent dog. Her owner was an experienced trainer and handler, and pretty knowledgeable about the breed. Her other breed was Boxers--another dog this day and age that is difficult to put a schutzhund title on (even though for the longest time in Germany, they were second in popularity only to the GSD for schutzhund work).

This AmStaff's biggest problem in the obedience was heeling on-leash--heeling off-leash was not a problem, but anytime she had a leash on her, it was a constant tug. That is where she also lost the most points. The retrieving exercises were iffy as well--although her ability to clear the brush hurdle and negotiate the seven-foot wall was pure poetry in motion.

But this dog's biggest problem in obedience was maintaining the long down while the other dog was executing its obedience routine. Depending on her "mood," she was bad for breaking the long-down and going after the other dog--especially during the other dog's long recall or send-away.

We finally had to resort to the Tritronics e-collar with a very high corrective setting and continuous correction--often up to the full ten seconds. This dog had to be brought to her knees, shrieking before we were finally able to have confidence that she could maintain the long-down without going after the other dog.

And again, this dog was owned by a woman experienced in both training and the breed.

Her protection work was sharp, swift and precise--right up until it was time to out the sleeve. Most dogs learn to out the sleeve fairly quickly once that portion of the training is undertaken, but both of the bulldogs hated releasing the sleeve. We were prepared for this, with them being bulldogs, but it took a lot longer to get them ready for trial than it did with the other (breeds of) dogs.

Overall, while there are a handful of the bulldog types that have managed to earn schutzhund titles (none to my knowledge have ever earned a FR III or made it through the Dutch Ring or French Campagne), they are not a breed suited to that type of training or work.

I share the opinion of many other working dog trainers who say that the "talents and abilities" of today's bulldog breeds are very limited when compared to the same "talents and abilities" of other breeds from the Working and Herding groups--and with a few exceptions, the Sporting Group (Labs, Goldens Weimeraners).

But then again, today's Dachschund is pretty limited as well, as are a lot of breeds.

Which is why I have never heard of working dogs or herding dogs being referred to as "game," but rather as having strong drive.

Funny thing in the Doberman world (AKC side of it, that is) is there is a test done at Doberman specialties called the Working Aptitude Evaluation (WAE). The creator of that test is Vic Montelon who is well regarded in the DPCA. Vic breeds Dobermans that Europeans come over HERE to purchase and then take back to Germany and France for schutzhund and ring work. In other words, he breeds Dobermans with correct temperament.

In the final portion of the WAE, the Doberman and its handler are confronted by the "weird stranger" who acts menacingly towards both the dog and the handler. The dog is expected to show every indication that he is ready to mix it up with the weird stranger in defense of both himself and his handler. If you fail that portion of the test, you fail the entire WAE. So the dog isn't expected to show instant aggression--he is required to.

Yet, dog aggression will get you and your dog dismissed from the grounds. Dog aggression that a schutzhund or campagne judge deems threatening will not only get you dismissed from the trial, but it can also disqualify your dog from further competitions. In instances where such a dog actually does attack another competing dog, it is not unusual for that dog to be permanently barred from further competition and its registration papers revoked.

I admire a dog with strong drives--but only if that dog also has the capacity to be under constant, reliable voice-only control. If it doesn't, then it is of absolutely zero value to the working dog's world.

--JD"

http://www.sunshineband.org/cgi-bin/boards/dogpark.pl?read=28655

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