- UC and XU's Place in Today's College Basketball World -- The Big O, 14:16:23 05/13/03 Tue (node2.lenscrafters.com/208.255.68.2)
It has been apparent for some time that UC is not an Elite program. UC is not in the same company as the teams that a currently Elite in today's College Basketball World. UC is not in the same group as Duke, UNC, Maryland, Kansas or UK. Those are Elite Programs. UC falls short mostly because of their failure to have consistent success in the NCAA Tournament. That one factor keeps them from being Elite. Just because it is that factor that hinders UC, it cannot be said that XU's failures in the NCAA's automatically relegate them to Mid-Major status. While NCAA success is the most important factor to consider when categorizing a particular team in the College Basketball World, it is hardly the only factor. Using other factors keeps XU from being Mid-Major. XU like UC is not Elite but they both fall into a category some where in between.
One of the big factors you decided not to incorporate in your ignorant post is conference affiliation. Any team outside of Gonzaga (currently) that resides in a conference that consistently, year after year, only receives one bid to the NCAA's has to be considered Mid-Major. Butler is a good example of this. Any team on your list that falls under this scrutiny must be considered to be below XU in the College Basketball World. That is not to say that teams in that list cannot be more successful on any given year than XU or UC. Consistency is the key. XU is in what is usually regarded as the 8th or 9th best conference overall. Except for last year, the A10 consistently sends more than one team to the NCAA's each year. Again, this is just one factor to consider.
Another is where a particular team consistently finishes in their respective conference. Some teams in both the A10 and Conference USA are indeed Mid-Major. Consistency is the key. Teams that consistently finish in the bottom third of the 8th or 9th best conference or lower can automatically consider themselves Mid-Major (currently). XU and UC consistently finish in the top third or higher in their conferences. Both can consider themselves non Mid-Major. They both play in conferences with Mid-Major teams like Duquesne and ECU but a few bad apples in a conference does not make everyone in that conference Mid-Major.
XU and UC both fall into a category of Major teams. This is a large group that is not unlike the Mid-Major group in size. There are many teams that find themselves less than Elite but not Mid-Major either. The teams I mentioned earlier are currently the Elite teams in College Basketball. This list is subject to change of course. UNC for example is dangerously close to falling from the Elite status to Major status if they continue to have seasons like last year's. There are teams in the Major category like IU for example that may claim UNC's spot if IU has sustained success similar to last season. The spectrum in the Major category is wide. Obviously XU is not close to IU right now. IU has to be considered to be on the high end of the spectrum in the Major category. XU and UC are in that spectrum some where. They can jump up or down on any given year. Some years XU may be close to dropping to Mid-Major status. Some years, UC is close to jumping to Elite status. Where they are in the spectrum today or at the end of this coming season is not important to this reply. The only importance is in knowing that they are both currently in that spectrum.
Take every team except for those in the Elite group from the Big Six Conferences and put them all in the Major category. Now take every team that finishes in the top third or higher in the 7th, 8th and 9th best conferences and throw them into the Major category as well. There are exceptions of course. For example the consistently best team from the 10th best conference might find themselves to be in the Major category as well. Consistency is the key. Gonzaga is currently a Major team. Throw in three or four bad seasons and they may find themselves in the Mid-Major category.
There are other factors to consider as well when grouping particular teams. Obviously facilities, revenue, TV packages and the like all can determine what category a team might fall or where on the spectrum they may fall in that category. What cannot be considered is ancient history. Season results more than 20 years ago should not be considered. No one cares that La Salle won a National Championship in the 1950's and no one cares that UC won National titles 40 years ago. Those seasons are nice to remember and they do skew results such as ESPN's all time best wining %'s or some crap of that nature. If a team was a monster 40 years ago, those numbers will inflate what kind of program they have today. UC was Elite in the 1960's. They are not today. XU was Mid-Major in the 1960's. They are not today.
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- The Big O is right. (NT) -- UC Chris, 14:50:37 06/03/03 Tue
- I am glad to see you are finally seeing the truth. (NT) -- LH, 08:49:18 06/05/03 Thu
- I am glad to see you are finally seeing the truth. (NT) -- LH, 08:55:45 06/05/03 Thu
- _ (NT) -- _, 15:57:12 07/02/03 Wed
- fd (NT) -- asd, 09:28:39 05/17/05 Tue
- UC is not Elite. Not even close. (NT) -- The Big O, 14:12:21 06/09/03 Mon
- I also agree. (NT) -- Snipe, 08:38:40 06/16/03 Mon
- Well said Snipe. (NT) -- Craig Hammon, 08:28:52 06/17/03 Tue
- Thanks. (NT) -- LH, 15:57:15 06/20/03 Fri
- Wow you Xavier fans are obsessed and pathetic -- The Man, 18:06:45 07/16/03 Wed
- gfd (NT) -- rft, 08:24:57 03/22/05 Tue
- gf (NT) -- gf, 09:12:00 01/04/06 Wed
- gn (NT) -- mg, 09:27:53 05/10/06 Wed
- http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3493766 -- XU is better than UC in modern era per ESPN., 14:24:07 07/25/08 Fri
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Please call Thad Matta at 1 800 degrees ext. academic fraud
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- When did Thad leave X for UC? Wish I had been there now if they are giving away degrees. (NT) -- The 83% of the players that did not graduate!, 17:31:28 05/28/02 Tue
- When i think I've seen the dumbest post ever, a UC knuckle dragger steps forward to up the ante on stupidity. Do you guys even realize that you are making fun of Xavier for graduating players? Your argument is based on the mistaken impression that undereducated UC fans seem to share that UC is better than Xavier because UC almost never graduates a player and Xavier almost always does. Do you actually think that's logical? You must jest. (NT) -- Homeskillet, 12:02:49 05/29/02 Wed
- You mean like that Xavier genius Byron Larkin who cannot speak in complete sentences and had never heard of Lincoln, Nebraska? I wonder how such a smart, college graduate had never heard of the capital city of one of the fifty states of the United States of America? (NT) -- Mid-Major Muskies, 17:35:24 05/29/02 Wed
- Your right, assmunch, I would rather have Dontonio Wingfield over Byron Larkin any day of the week. Other than those in the pros, name me a UC player WITHOUT a degree who is doing better with his career than Byron Larkin. You can call the man dumb all you want, the point is that a man with a degree has more options than a man without one. Therefore, you UC fans are dumb as hell to mock Xavier for graduating players while lauding UC for institutional failure. (NT) -- Homeskillet, 18:34:40 05/29/02 Wed
- Yeah. As long as he doesn't have to find Lincoln, Nebraska he'll be fine. Byron Larkin's career??? What's so great about being the worse color analyst in the history of college basketball (with all due respect to Ralph Lee). (NT) -- Mid-Major Muskies, 21:49:30 05/29/02 Wed
- Even if Byron were the worst color analyst on earth, it's better than living in a jail cell like so many UC players. It's also a better gig than the UC players who were used by the program and never got a degree will ever get. You didn't answer my question (which non-degreed, non-pro UC player is doing better than Byron?) or respond to my overall point (it's better to get a degree than to not because it provides a greater range of options). Why do UC fans act as if a degree is a bad thing? (NT) -- Homeskillet, 14:29:55 05/30/02 Thu
- What UC players are sitting in a jail cell? I think you're confussing them with David Payton and Lloyd Price. I'm not some weirdo like you appear to be that knows what every former UC player is doing. I have no idea what Keith Gregor or Bobby Brannen or Keith Starks are currently doing. (NT) -- Mid-Major Muskies, 14:35:05 05/30/02 Thu
- So, in other words, you can't answer my questions. The plain truth is that it is better to get a degree than to not get a degree and that UC fans mock Xavier's continued dedication to educating and graduating its players because UC fans know their programs failure to do so is a travesty. (NT) -- Homeskillet, 14:48:03 05/30/02 Thu
- No I can't. Like I said, I have no idea what many of these guys do after they leave school. I know Tarrance Gibson has a very good job at JTM and is in their newest commercial. Is that good enough for you? If you're so worried about what former UC players are doing, why don't you do some research? I have no idea. (NT) -- Mid-Major Muskies, 14:52:13 05/30/02 Thu
- Maybe you can answer this question: Do you dispute the statement that it is generally better to get a degree than to not get a degree because a degree provides more options? Yes or No. (NT) -- Homeskillet, 15:10:37 05/30/02 Thu
- Not necessarily in the world of sports. How many of these players that didn't graduate from UC went on to play pro ball in the NBA or over seas? Terry Nelson makes a nice living and is a UC graduate. Of course he doesn't count because he went to a junior college, but still he has done well for himself. Overall though, yes, it's always better to further your education as much as possible. I don't think you need a college diploma to be a decent human being though, which is how most Xavier fans seem to act. Out of curiosity, why do you care if UC players graduate or not? I don't care if Xavier players graduate. They're given a free education. Whether or not they graduate is up to the player. If Dontonio Wingfield (for example) decides a college diploma is not important to him, why would you care? (NT) -- Mid-Major Muskies, 00:30:57 05/31/02 Fri
- Dontonio Wingfield is a sad example. He was a guy dropping kids all over the place who never intended to even try for an education. He used UC as much as it used him. He wanted a little exposure then the quick buck in the NBA. When he got there, he wasn't ready in terms of athletic, emotional, or intellectual maturity. Don made his own bed though. I am not concerned for the players who have a legitimate shot at the pros, and the UC players who have gone pro aren't part of my argument. More power to them. It's the marginal players who fail to graduate that concern me, not on any personal level, but on a societal level. When these kids are given this chance and then not encouraged to pick up that chance and make the most out of it, it is bad for society. (NT) -- Homeskillet, 11:42:32 05/31/02 Fri
- Yet you make claims that you cannot support. You speak as if none of these former UC players (who did not graduate) have gone on to do anything with their lives, when in fact, you have no idea. They could be fathers teaching their children the right way or have great jobs that make them very happy. You don't know....you just assume the worst. Why (just because a young man went to the University of Cincinnati) do you assume the worse for him? (NT) -- Mid-Major Muskies, 01:34:27 06/01/02 Sat
- To an extent you are right. I know very little about what the average UC basketball player does after leaving the school, whether he has gotten his degree or not. I do know that statistics prove that the higher level of education a man attains, the more income he typically achieves, the less prone to violence/crime he becomes, the more likely he is to achieve a stable family base, and the more likely he is to father children who also achieve the advantages of education. Maybe the UC players who have not received a degree have overcome these trends. Regardless, they are also public figures and role models to some extent, whether they choose to be or not, and Bob Huggins should be aware of that fact and strongly encourage every player to get his degree. If the non-graduating players have achieved the wonderful lives you describe, would the lives be worse with a degree? (NT) -- Homeskillet, 10:05:35 06/03/02 Mon
- Assmunch? Wow, them Xavier boys are smart. I mean with witty comebacks like that, how do any of us mere mortals stand a chance. "Assmunch"....WOW...that one stings. (NT) -- Mid-Major Muskies, 21:56:09 05/29/02 Wed
- RudeMuch? -- Nichole, 18:12:30 07/18/08 Fri
- HAHAHAHAHA -- Bob Huggins Has No Integrity (Loving Life), 08:06:00 01/16/08 Wed (nr31-69-61-234-182.fuse.net/69.61.234.182)
This is so hilarious! I was searching for "Bob Huggins has no integrity" and came across this site. I hope you UC hicks are loving life now. HA!
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- Penis -- Yetti, 00:51:48 03/12/06 Sun (cpe-71-67-244-176.cinci.res.rr.com/71.67.244.176)
Penis
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- Huggins Fired -- The Big O, 12:41:59 08/24/05 Wed (NoHost/66.161.74.248)
After 16 years of corrupt and underhanded techniques to win some games in the regular season, UC finally has had enough of his sleaziness and fired Bob Huggins. What a great day of the city of Cincinnati!
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- Donald Little -- Bob Huggins, 17:49:00 01/09/03 Thu (cache-mtc-ah04.proxy.aol.com/64.12.96.169)
What the fuck? According to the papers he beat ANOTHER woman. Jesus Christ, this kid is a thug! And a pussy. Donald, if you're gonna whack a bitch make sure you fuck her up old school so she can't testify. I thought I taught you right from wrong.
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- Hey coach. I'm sorry. I was just connectin' with some peoples and the bitch got uppity. Anyway, I can't tell you where I am cuz the poe-lice are lookin' for me but I give you a hint- What do you eat on Thanksgiving? Well, I know you eat two honey hams, a sack of taters, five cheeseburgers, 10 hot dogs and 4 pies- pumpkin, cherry, pecan and hair, but what do most people eat? (NT) -- Donald Little, 10:03:05 01/10/03 Fri
- big o... remember me??? -- joe, 18:37:27 01/12/03 Sun
- Have they found him yet? (NT) -- O.J., 09:59:02 01/16/03 Thu
- I don't care of Little killed his own mother. We need a center this year and I would be glad to have him back. The kid deserves a 5th chance. (NT) -- bearcat54, 15:26:43 01/17/03 Fri
- are you people mental you are making it seem that it is okay for a man to put his hand on a woman i think mr little should get the book thrown at him to teach him a lesson this guy really has a problem!! (NT) -- bearcatjohn, 09:30:54 01/20/03 Mon
- you people are insane the bearcats don't need a psycho on this team even if he would have been a good center this year, he would just get himself in trouble again and bring the program down with him he needs to be cut off for good and we as bearcat supporters should see that it happens (NT) -- bearcatjohn, 11:00:43 02/25/03 Tue
- nj (NT) -- nj, 09:11:16 01/04/06 Wed
- Corrupt UC -- The Big O, 13:57:24 05/13/03 Tue (node2.lenscrafters.com/208.255.68.2)
Let's take a look at some of the things that have happened since Mr. Huggins has arrived on campus.
1.) Recruits Dontonio Wingfield. Wingfield fails out of his hometown high school and Huggins moves him to Cincinnati to attend a local high school so that he is eligible to play for UC the next year. Wingfield beats up his grandmother, destroys part of her house and is arrested on assault charges. Huggins and UC reward Wingfield with a full scholarship. In his first season, Wingfield spends his holiday in jail as part of his punishment for beating up his grandmother. He is allowed to play on the team. When it is convenient for UC and Wingfield, he spends time in jail. Wingfield leaves UC early and is drafted in the second round to the NBA. He rides the pine, is eventually cut. He is then cut from his CBA team. Wingfield is currently in jail.
2.) Recruits Damon Flint after Ohio State is put on probation for their recruitment of Mr. Flint. Huggins and UC give Flint a full scholarship. While at UC, Flint beats up his girlfriend and steals her purse after an argument. He remains on the team. After four years of eligibility expire Flint moves on from UC, without a degree.
3.) Recruits Art Long. Long, a convicted drug dealer is awarded with a full scholarship by Huggins and UC. While at UC, Long is questioned by police outside of a local bar. Long subsequently punches the police officers horse. Long remains on the team. When Long's eligibility expires, he moves on, without a degree.
4.) Recruits Darnell Burton. Burton is given a scholarship. While Burton is at UC, he breaks the university's drug policy. Instead of being punished for breaking this policy, UC changes the drug policy to accommodate Burton and the team.Burton goes unpunished and remains on the team. Burton's eligibility expires, he moves on, without a degree.
5.) Recruits Ruben Patterson. Patterson is given a scholarship. While at UC, Patterson is caught driving a car and living in a condo that he did not pay for. Clear violations of NCAA rules. Patterson is allowed to continue playing for UC.
6.) Charles Williams is recruited by UC. Williams is given a scholarship. While at UC, it is discovered that Williams was not fully eligible after leaving JC. The NCAA finally steps in and puts UC on probation. Huggins is clearly to blame for the breaking of the NCAA rules but uses his assistant coach as an escape goat. Nothing more happens to Huggins.
7.) Recruits Donald Little. Little is given a scholarship. While at UC, Little is pulled over in his car and is cited for DUI, driving without a license and possession of an illegal substance. He pleads the charges down and remains on the team. A few months later, Little beats up a woman bar tender at a local bar and Little is charged with assault. Little is kicked off the team. The charges are again pleaded down. Meanwhile, BJ Grove leaves the team for personal matters and UC has a real problem with a lack of big men for next year's team. Even though Little plead guilty to numerous charges, he is allowed back on the team.
8.) Recruits B.J. Grove. Grove is given a scholarship by UC. While at UC, Grove beats up his 9 month pregnant girlfriend, throws her into the bath tub and whips a beer bottle at her when she is down. Grove is arrested for assault but the charges are dropped when Grove's girlfriend refuses to testify. It would be hard for Grove to provide for his girlfriend and new baby if he was in jail. Grove is allowed to remain on team.
Anything new you ask? Well let's revisit Donald Little shall we. After being let back on the team, Little plays out the season. On April 1, 2002, Donald Little calls up his roommate and invites him over to a friends house. There, Little begins to beat his roommate along with others, throws weights on his head, stabs him and burns him before asking his friends to take his roommate to Columbus to kill him. He is arrested and after a few days pass, Little is once again removed from the team. While "off the team", Little is invited back for awards night where he takes home an award. Even though he is supposedly off the team, there he is right there with the team participating in a team event. Little is currently still facing the charges of assault and attempted murder. He will no doubt be brought back on the team if his charges are dropped, reduced or if he escapes prison.
Besides the charges that face Little, there is a question of how Little was able to obtain $2,500.00 in cash that was the source of the beat down Little gave to his roommate. Drug dealing has not been ruled out nor has the rumor that Huggins pays his players like Ruben Patterson.
That would be enough for 2002 but there is more. UC recruit and current student Erik Hicks was shot in the leg after he was involved in a drug deal or gang fight gone bad. Whichever it was cannot be determined because Hicks refused to identify the shooter, probably because Hicks shot him first. The matter is still unresolved.
This is all before the 2002-2003 season begins. God only knows what other problems and trouble will come starting in November. Which current Cat do you all think will be the first to be arrested this season?
How about Robert Whaley, who raped a 13 year old and is now facing new felony charges. Good pick-up!
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- LH is a big fat homo! -- Mike Oxbig, 21:25:31 05/03/05 Tue (lbout-54.anonymizer.com/168.143.113.54)
LH is a big fat homo
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- Here's some facts for you Big Zero -- Mid-Major Muskies, 15:18:55 10/07/02 Mon (cache-ra05.proxy.aol.com/152.163.188.5)
2002: Xavier 25-5 #7 Seed
2002: UC 30-3 #1 Seed
2001: UC 23-9 #5 Seed
2000: UC 28-3 #2 Seed
1999: UC 26-5 #3 Seed
1998: UC 26-5 #2 Seed
1997: UC 25-7 #3 Seed
1996: UC 25-4 #2 Seed
1995: UC 21-11 #7 Seed
1994: UC 22-9 #8 Seed
1993: UC 24-4 #2 Seed
1992: UC 25-4 #4 Seed
Answer this Big Zero...Why does Xavier go 25-5 and get a #7 Seed, while in 1995 UC goes 21-11 and gets a #7 Seed? I thought you said the programs were at the same level.
How come when UC loses 5 games in a season they are seeded #2 (1998) and #3 (1999)? I thought you said the programs were at the same level.
Why in 2001 did UC win 2 less games and lose 4 more games than Xavier did last season, yet receive a #5 Seed? I thought you said the programs were at the same level.
Welcome to reality Big Zero.
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- Cincinnati is an elite program (Top 10 All-Time Program -- The Man, 22:35:14 03/09/05 Wed (nr20-66-42-128-133.fuse.net/66.42.128.133)
Now shut up Big O.
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- For J. Walker -- LH, 13:19:35 01/27/03 Mon (bm-csc1.lenscrafters.com/208.255.68.3)
So, just what makes a team 'mid-major'?
By Andy Katz
ESPN.com
SPOKANE, Wash. -- Mark Few hates the term, can't stand it, doesn't want to hear it and, quite frankly, doesn't understand why anyone would think Gonzaga is still a mid-major program.
"It's a very poor descriptor for college basketball and has nothing to do with describing the level of a team's play and everything to do with describing the capital campaigns of the university," the feisty Gonzaga coach said.
He's right, but the problem is there has to be some sort of separation to breakdown the programs that do have the dough, the television exposures and the major conference cache from the teams and leagues that get their 15 minutes of fame for a game or two in March. But therein lies the problem, if you can even call it one, for Gonzaga.
The Bulldogs have crossed over into the mainstream by recruiting and signing top 100 players (Sean Mallon), producing a first-round NBA draft pick (Dan Dickau) and possibly more (Erroll Knight and Ronny Turiaf). Gonzaga is now a regular on the made-for-TV circuit, from getting into the final Great Eight event three years ago to the Great Alaska Shootout last season to a rare quadruple of high-profile games this season in the Maui Invitational (Utah and possibly Indiana in the first two games), Pete Newell Challenge (Stanford), the Delta Airlines Classic (Georgia) and the Jimmy V Classic (North Carolina State).
And, the Zags were in three straight Sweet 16s, including an Elite Eight, which will for the foreseeable future put them ahead of any bottom dwellers in high major conferences, let alone the majority of high-major teams.
"We're scheduling in all the major events and TV is the main thing," Few said. "How many programs in the last 20 years have done what we have done. Look at it any way you want, but the teams at the bottom of the mid-level or high-level football leagues would want to have done what we have.
"All everyone wants to focus on is the league, the facilities and how much money your league produces. What I say is, evaluate the program and what they have done."
Take out rival Pepperdine, which is trying to emulate what Gonzaga has done the past three seasons with an NCAA win over Indiana and regular-season wins over UCLA and USC, and the West Coast Conference is a mid-major conference. The facilities are mostly oversized gyms rather than arenas and hardly luxurious (outside of the new Craig Pavilion at the University of San Diego). The money pumped into the programs doesn't compare to a football playing conference.
Gonzaga, meanwhile, is building a brand new Kennel because they have outgrown the old barn. And, maybe, the Bulldogs will get new coaches' offices and locker rooms that don't have to be on equal footing with the cubicles for the rest of the sports at the quaint Jesuit school.
Gonzaga is clearly in the gray area. But, so too, are Tulsa and Hawaii and the rest of the WAC. An argument can be made that a number of programs in the Mountain West, the Atlantic 10 and certainly the MAC ride the fence, as well. There have been success stories in these leagues, like Tulsa's run to the Elite Eight in 2000; Massachusetts' Final Four in '96; Kent State's Elite Eight berth last season; and Utah's 1998 Final Four breakthrough.
But major Division I-A football, which is still a question for some schools in the WAC and MWC, seems to keep those schools out of the mid-major discussion. The lack of funds and a major television contract keeps the MAC schools in that category, too.
Some A-10 schools, like Xavier and Temple, clearly compete for some of the top talent in the nation. But others like Fordham and Duquesne of late would probably be more successful playing in a mid-major league like the MAAC. Take away the ESPN contract from the A-10 and a debate could surely rage as to where to place the Big East's little brother.
The Sun Belt (Western Kentucky), Big West (once former member UNLV's dominance ended in '92) and the Missouri Valley (Creighton and Southern Illinois of late) can't make a serious claim about leaping out of mid-major status. They don't have the television exposure, lack the big-time facilities and the overall funding to be categorized with, say, an SEC school.
The NCAA Tournament and regular season television games remain the great equalizer. So, far, Gonzaga is the only school to move up to high-major status without jumping to a high-level conference. But that won't stop the masses from still calling them a mid-major.
Few just won't listen.
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- Thank you that is exactly my point. I read that article long ago. The final 4 sentences sum it all up. They have the credentials. They are just in the wrong conf. which is why they are listed on every mid major poll. (NT) -- J Walker, 17:56:01 01/27/03 Mon
- Actually the last sentence sums it up. You read it but obviously did not understand it. Teams can be Major in "Mid-Major" conferences and teams can be Mid-Major in "Major" conferences. Not understanding this shows your ignorance and narrow mindeness that Few is talking about. READ IT AGAIN! (NT) -- LH, 09:09:21 01/28/03 Tue
- . (NT) -- ., 08:35:30 03/04/03 Tue
- . (NT) -- ., 14:50:56 03/05/03 Wed
- . (NT) -- ., 16:20:45 03/12/03 Wed
- J. Walker claims that Gonzaga is Mid-Major. This article shows that they clearly are not and to think that they are is pure ignorance of college basketball. (NT) -- LH, 09:10:58 01/28/03 Tue
- ., (NT) -- ,., 08:12:50 03/10/03 Mon
- hey (NT) -- hey, 08:10:00 03/25/03 Tue
- J. Reply here. Do not start another ridiculous thread filled with opinion that does not address the issue. (NT) -- LH, 11:00:11 01/28/03 Tue
- RE:"Mid-Major" lable -- Mike C., 00:19:07 09/01/04 Wed
- Does anyone know if Donald Little is serving his sentence now? -- dryeye, 23:20:49 09/03/03 Wed (cache-dl03.proxy.aol.com/205.188.209.39)
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- Seeding -- The Big O, 15:18:15 10/14/02 Mon (bm-csc1.lenscrafters.com/208.255.68.3)
Now that it has been settled that XU and UC are both Major programs, I would like to take the time to further demonstrate MMM’s ignorance of College Basketball. In his attempt to try to prove XU as not a Major program, he tried to justify his belief mostly based on seeding. He believes that because XU got screwed in their seeding that that makes XU less than a Major program. I know it is a silly stance, but let me address it anyway.
Oklahoma was clearly the fourth number 1 seed last year. They did everything that was asked of them, including beating another Number 1 seed (Kansas) on the day the brackets were released. Committee members were asked how they justified bumping OU to a #2 seed and their response was that they did not even watch the Kansas Oklahoma game and that the outcome did not factor into their decision. Expert after expert agreed that OU should have gotten a #1 and that UC should have gotten the #2. All OU did was play their way into a Final 4 and UC was yet again upset in the second round. The committee screwed up but things always seem to work themselves out. OU was clearly much better than UC last year and even though they did not get as high a seed they proved their worth on the court.
Because the Selection Committee is human, they make mistakes. Each year teams get screwed out of where they should be and others are unjustly rewarded. Why this happens is subject for debate usually until the Sweet 16. The Committee refuses to divulge all the factors they use to determine the end resulted brackets. This is done to minimize criticism when they make obvious mistakes like last year with UC and OU. Obviously there is more to the seeding than RPI and a team’s record. The BCS teams are often times unjustly rewarded in their seeding.
Each year the Selection process is different from the year before. What a team did 2-3 years ago to get them a 4-5 seed might not get them the same seed with identical records and RPI this year. The Selection Committee does their best. They need to fill 64 spots with 100+ teams that can claim they deserve to be one of the 64. After they have decided who, they then must decide where. After that they must decide seeding.
Having to situate each team as fairly as possible, some teams are moved up in the seeding and others are moved down. The only teams that are happy are the 8 teams with one and two seeds and even some of them get screwed like OU last year. Until a better system is developed, fans will just have to understand that where a team is seeded is not an exact science and that mistakes will be made each and every year. This is one of the bad things about College Basketball. One of the good things is that because the games are decided on the court, seeding does not mean squat once the ball is tipped. Just ask UC, Kent State, Missouri or IU. Mistakes are made in the hotel rooms on Selection Sunday but they usually work themselves out by the Sweet 16.
Seed RPI's
1 1,2,3,4
2 5,7,8,34
3 6,9,11,17
4 10,12,18,26
5 15,16,19,23
6 13,21,22,30
7 14,20,24,32
8 29,38,41,55
9 28,37,40,45
10 25,27,35,49
11 36,42,48,63
12 31,33,44,51
13 39
Comparing expected seed vs rpi
· Largest shifts upward: Oregon (up 7), Wisconsin (up 5), Ole Miss (up 3), Notre Dame and USC (up 3), Stanford and Georgia (up 2)
· Largest shifts downward: Utah (down 4) Xavier, Hawaii, Tulsa, SanDiego State (all down 3), Texas Tech and Okl State (down 2)
· The remaining 30 (of 42 teams) from the top ten conferences were within one seed of that predicted by RPI
· The Pac-10 has 4 of 6 teams seeded higher than their RPI.
· The Big-10, SEC, and Pac-10 regular season champs were obviously not held accountable for tournament failings-none even made the semifinals!
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- The #2 RPI team doesn't deserve a 1 seed??? Then why did you say "Seed RPIs 1- 1,2,3,4??? Damn Big Zero, now you're arguing with yourself. If it's not program status, then just exactly why is it you think the NCAA Selection Committee screwed Xavier??? Maybe they don't like their jerseys??? Maybe they think Matta has a funny nose??? You tell us. I think it's because Xavier is a mid-major, but you seem to have another opinion on the matter. We're all waiting to hear what that load of shit may be. (NT) -- Mid-Major Muskies, 19:45:54 10/14/02 Mon
- I'm also glad to see you noticed San Diego St and Tulsa were placed low. These are two teams from your own mid-major list. 3 spots lower than their RPI would indicate seems to be a common theme amongst mid-major programs. (NT) -- Mid-Major Muskies, 00:30:35 10/15/02 Tue
- n (NT) -- o, 13:48:22 05/13/03 Tue
- Utah and Oklahoma St also got screwed. What is your great theory on that? Can't answer that can you? The point is (as you miss all points) is that the selection process has no rhyme or reason to it and when a team is seeded it has very little to do with its status. Being a Major program like XU encompases so much more. Your ignorance knows no limits. (NT) -- The Big O, 08:12:06 10/15/02 Tue
- Don't listen to The Big O, he is a dumbass -- The Man, 18:05:34 07/16/03 Wed (as1-216-68-15-216.fuse.net/216.68.15.216)
It's a joke that a Xavier fan's life is so pathetic that he has to pretend to be a UC fan. Cincinnati is an elite program, they're ranked as one of the Top 10 programs in history. If they weren't an elite program, they wouldn't have gotten a #1 seed in 2002. Just get on with your life, Big O stop being pathetic and pretending to be a UC fan, you look like a loser.
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- Suggestion for MMM -- The Big O, 09:58:20 10/15/02 Tue (bm-csc1.lenscrafters.com/208.255.68.3)
Instead of replying back and forth on numerous posts, why don’t we try to confine our debate to this one post and I will try to educate you once and for all.
I have contended that XU is a Major Program due to the fact that they play in the consistently 7th-9th Conference. Neither the A10 nor CUSA can consistently crack the Big Six Conferences. I have said that not all the teams in the A10 or CUSA are Major Programs. Obviously La Salle and East Carolina from the CUSA are Mid-Major. Both UC and XU consistently finish in the top 3 of their respective conference. That fact is one aspect that quantifies both as Major Programs.
Another fact is that both programs have large on campus arenas that draw over 10,000 fans per game. This fact alone does not make either a Major Program but combined with the fact that both consistently win in their upper echelon leagues is another factor that helps make both Major Programs.
Both have TV packages that televise 90% or better of their season. XU is televised on a Regional network and UC on a local network that cannot even be seen in Dayton. Both play games on National TV. TV deals alone do not make a program Major but if a program has the other factors mentioned before it is another factor in making XU and UC Major Programs.
Another factor is revenue. Both XU and UC’s basketball team’s revenue not only support the other athletic programs but keep the athletic program running. UC’s football team loses money each and every year. Both programs make a lot of money for their university.
XU and UC have both had consistent success in recruiting. XU has produced almost as many NBA players as UC in recent years. UC has had McDonald’s All-Americans that some time pan out and XU has made the habit of finding unheralded gems one after another that become great college basketball players and fine pros. Both have had numerous top 100 recruits in recent years. Recruiting is a crap shoot and getting highly touted recruits means very little. What is important is what happens to that recruit while he is at the respective program. Both have had great success turning their recruits in to great college basketball players. Every year there are busts and hidden projects that become unbelievable players. Damon Flint was a bust but Steve Logan was that hidden gem. Lloyd Price was a bust but David West was a hidden gem. Again recruiting and development of talent is just one aspect. Combined with the other factors previously mentioned, make a program Major.
Another factor is post season appearances and success. To be a Major program, one needs to combine all that is mentioned above and be successful in the post season. Both XU and UC have made the post season in every season in recent years. Neither has been to more than one Sweet 16 in recent years. This fact does not hinder the fact that both are Major Programs. Great post season success on a consistent basis combined with the other factors above would make that program more than Major. They would be Elite. Neither UC nor XU is Elite due to their failures to have consistent success in the post season. Teams that make the Sweet 16 or beyond on a yearly basis combined with the factors previously mentioned make them Elite. Having said that, it is quite apparent that both XU and UC are Major Programs. Since there are only a handful of teams that can call themselves Elite there are 50 or so teams that can call themselves Major Programs. Some are higher on the list than others. IU or UCONN are obviously higher on the list than UC or XU but they are all Major Programs. Every category has a top dog and teams that are close to falling down a level. UNC may not be Elite much longer and may drop into the Major category. Teams like Gonzaga could drop back into Mid-Major status if their success starts to fade.
There are exceptions to every rule of course. I mentioned Gonzaga as a Major Program. Right now they are. They have proven over the course of recent years with their regular season and post season success that they are a Major Program.
MMM contends that either XU is not a Major Program or that UC is a Mid-Major Program. His two main reasons for this have been seeding a national recognition. He has not disproven any of the cold hard facts above that make XU and UC Major programs. He has instead tried to back his argument with seeding and national recognition as the only things that can be considered when judging a team’s status. It has been foolish at best.
First, XU and UC both were ranked in the top 25 last season and the season before. Both have been in the top 10 in recent years. Both have been predicted to go to the Final 4. Neither has but both were predicted. Both are annually predicted to win their conferences. Both get good national recognition. Not that it matters as I have not heard too much about USC, Villanova, Arkansas etc in the national news but they are all Major Programs. This proves two things. One that XU does get good national coverage as does UC and it also proves that a program can be a Major Program without great national coverage every season. The teams mentioned above are Major Programs that have not enjoyed national press in the last few years. They however do possess the important factors above in my portion that make them Major Programs.
The other belief is that seeding makes a team Major. We all know this to be false as seeding is an inexact science at best. Each year numerous programs complain that they got screwed in the seeding process. Only the Selection Committee knows for sure how they arrive at the seeds. Oregon got a #2 seed and had and RPI of 34. OSU beat Illinois in the Big Ten Championship and both got a #4 seed with Illinois playing in the better venue. Oklahoma beat Kansas a #1 seed in their conference championship and was screwed with a #2 seed. North Carolina did not even make the NCAA’s last year. Seeding does not determine the status of a program. Seeding means very little in terms of how a program is viewed. Ohio State, Oklahoma State, Oklahoma, Gonzaga all got shafted as did many others. The shaft was not given out of disrespect nor does it mean that those programs are mid-major. What it means is that the Selection Committee has to make tough decisions every year and each year a handful of teams are going to get the shaft. It is hard to please everyone. UC’s team with K-Mart got a #2 seed when Huggins thought they deserved a #1. This shaft did not relegate them to Mid-Major status.
In closing I would like to point out that MMM’s two points of debate have no merit in a discussion about program status. He has not addressed or countered my above points. He will no doubt get home from school today and attempt to either devalue my facts or post some other non-important factor to justify his opinion.
MMM, if you care to foolishly continue this debate let us do so on this post only to save time and space on this board. If you really want to save time and space you can simply post your apology below and never return to this board again. Thank you for your time.
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- I just saw the new uniforms, and are they sweet? All of that mauve and black looks so sensual, don't you think? I tell you, if they make a replica jacket and crotchless panties I am ALL set. -- LH, 12:34:19 07/02/03 Wed (NoHost/216.68.29.113)
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- (AP) The Katharine Warfield Lewis Center of Cincinnati , Ohio reports that patient LH has walked away from the center. This minimum security center located in Cincinnati was the site of an epidemic of walkaways in the late 80's. Spokesperson Kevin Frye made the following staement tot he press: "If he hadn't been wearing women's clothing and a bedpan on his head we wouldn't have known it was him.We'll catch him. We're staking out the Dock, Dana's and other gay bars.Nothing to worry about." -- Ken Broo, 13:27:02 06/26/03 Thu (NoHost/216.68.29.113)
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- Okayz na, lissen up. I is being acruited by yo school to hoop for ugzava. Thad promest me a easy educationz but I ain intdestred in dat. I wans drugs, cash and wimmins, and doan brings me no hawg face cheerleada like yo dun for my man West. I wants da prime stuff fo me. Ya'll do dta an i'll comes play fo ya tiny ass mid-maja sckoole. -- Some hick in backwater Kentucky, 11:35:16 06/24/03 Tue (NoHost/216.68.29.113)
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- No, really, this will be OUR YEAR! We're going to the Sweet 16, dammit. -- LH, 12:14:08 06/23/03 Mon (NoHost/216.68.29.113)
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- heyz yawlz,i bez upfa paroe nes weekst an i gos my GED. -- Lloyd Price, 13:14:51 06/20/03 Fri (NoHost/216.68.29.113)
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- Snipe, X Band, LH and MHettel are all the same person. I knows ca2z I cawnholed allez dem in my cell. -- Lloyd the shotgun Price, 18:08:01 06/19/03 Thu (NoHost/216.68.29.113)
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- Flash!! LH annnounces to world press he is first to copulate with a cloned sheep. -- Luther Tiggs, 17:07:36 06/16/03 Mon (NoHost/216.68.29.113)
(ap) In an announcement made today in Nottinghamshire, England, noted pervert and idiot LH claimed to be the first to copulate with a cloned sheep. Speaking before a crowd of ugzavier homos, LH claimed "didn't even have to buyer a pint, as she were stump trained."
An astounded press contingent, horrified at LH's claim, pressed him to elaborate, at which point LH was informed that the sheep, Dolly, was indeed deceased at the time of the alledged tryst.
Upon hearing the disclosure LH cackled and said "I wondered why she just laid there, thought it was just me or something.She smelled kind of funny, but hell, she's a sheep."
Local authorities were debating whether to charge LH with buggery, necrophilia or both. In an even more bizarre twist, LH confidant MHettel swore revenge on LH for the betrayal of his conjugal affections. MHettel was heard to loudly claim from the back of the crowd "to get dumped for a sheep is one thing, but to get dumped for a dead one is an entirely different matter."
As the sun set on this bucolic community, farmers across the land were locking their sheep up in fear of a serial rapist being loose in the countryside. One local swore to this reporter "Owd ugzavier homos coomin over 'ere buggerin' our ewes and all, hast they nowt to do wit wimmin?"
Watch this space for more details.
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- Okay, I had to do it. I admit it, I'm gay. I feel liberated. -- Dana's, 16:13:35 06/17/03 Tue (NoHost/216.68.29.113)
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- UH, I'm going down to the Dock tonight if anyayou ugzavier fans want to party down. -- LH, 13:13:06 06/13/03 Fri (NoHost/216.68.29.113)
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- Damn! I onlyest went ta classe oncet Spring semmesta and got a A in all mys classus. Sister Rose is too cool. -- Will Caudle, 12:36:14 06/11/03 Wed (NoHost/216.68.29.113)
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- Help! M Hettel stole myz vibrator an imz afayed he get crap alls over it. -- David West, 14:47:29 05/09/03 Fri (NoHost/216.68.29.113)
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- I just watched shawshank redemption, and it ain't really that way in here. Wel, except maybe for all that cawnholin'. Anyway, LH, when you goin pay another conjugal visit? -- Lloyd "still in the pokey" Price, 13:16:52 06/06/03 Fri (NoHost/216.68.29.113)
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- Okay, time to set the record straight. I only went too ugzavier coz they promised me a bunch of free drugss and poontang. I gotta tell ya. The weed was shit and the hogs they set me up with were nasty. One of 'em had scales on her back and another one smelled like taint all the time. My advice to all you top 125 to 200 players considering ugzavier is this: if you are going for an easy academic ride, cool. If you're going for good weed and trim, forget it. -- David West, 17:26:56 06/04/03 Wed (NoHost/216.68.29.113)
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- Well sheeit dawg. i coulda hooked you up with some killer Colombian, and so could Lionel Chalmers, or Lenny. hell, Sato coold have scored some black African hash too! As far as the girls, I'm with ya bro. They're all a bunch of cows. (NT) -- Kevin Fried, 17:31:33 06/04/03 Wed
- Some guy from lenscrafters hooked me up with some nasty weed, but he did tell me about a place to go and get laid. I'm gonna check it out this weekend, it's a place called the Dock. (NT) -- Thenew hillbilly recruit from Ryle, 17:35:00 06/04/03 Wed
- All of this is not funny. I smoked a bunch of weed when I was a kid and it made my nose get big and my hair fall out. Quit encouraging the kids, will you! By the way, where is this place the Dock? (NT) -- Thad the hillcracker, 17:38:16 06/04/03 Wed
- MobilesInfo.com -- George, 06:25:39 06/02/03 Mon (esd.kharkov.ua/212.113.36.74)
MobilesInfo.com is a new non-commercial informational and analytical portal where you can find any required information: standards of mobile communication; mobile operators; tariff plans; roaming; mobile phones, articles and reviews.
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- I'm tryin' to do the math, so is this right. We go to the Sweet 16 about every 65 years.........we go to the NIT pretty often .we last went to the sweet 16 in 1950 something. Uh, when are we going again? I think it goes something like X2 - 16 =0. Let's see, um, x=4. GOT IT! We have no chance at the Sweet 16 ever again!! I did it!!! -- Sister Rose, 09:49:30 04/01/03 Tue (NoHost/216.68.29.113)
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- We're going to the Sweet Sixteen AGAIN. -- LH, 09:42:39 03/31/03 Mon (NoHost/216.68.29.113)
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- Mid-Major Hell -- Elvis, 00:12:16 03/25/03 Tue (cache-dm07.proxy.aol.com/205.188.209.75)
Well since a Sweet 16 in 1990
In the tourney X hasn't faired so well,
their program's stuck in a status known as
Mid-Major Hell,
That Sweet 16 banner gets so lonely
it gets so lonely baby,
it gets so lonely, _LH could die.
Ladies and gentlemen...Xavier has left the tourney.
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- What's the worth??? -- Mid-Major Muskies, 14:42:43 03/24/03 Mon (cache-rl02.proxy.aol.com/152.163.189.98)
A 1-loss conference campaign... An A 10 Championship
A 25-5 record... A #3 seed
Watching the best team Xavier has ever had, or ever will have, getting waxed by a 6 seed (who was actually the favorite, thank you NCAA Selection Committee for overrating Xavier so much, I cleaned up on Maryland -2), while that piece of trash punk David West gets scored on more times than The Big Zero on the back lot of a Village People concert...PRICELESS
The Xavier University Musketeers...Averaging 1 Sweet 16 appearance every 65 years and counting.
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- Well, I'm so proud of our boys, beatin' up on teams like Richmond and lasalle and Roger Bacon and Umass and St Boonie and .well, I'm just damn proud. We usedta have trouble beatin up on divison 2 schools and now we played our way right on up to bein mid-major. Shoot, if Soft David stayed around and cried for two or three more years we might even be considered a major. We're gonna hang a bigass banner sayin we made the second round, cause it'll never happen again and we want to have somethin up there to show recruits. Always impresses the hillbilly kids dontcha know. -- Mr. Lloyd Price, 11:46:39 03/25/03 Tue (NoHost/216.68.29.113)
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- West Dog -- Elvis, 00:06:07 03/25/03 Tue (cache-rl02.proxy.aol.com/152.163.189.98)
You ain't nothing but an over-hyped bum...crying all the time.
You ain't nothing but an over-hyped bum...crying all the time.
Well, you got exposed against Maryland
and you ain't no Player of the Year of mine.
Thank ya...thank ya very much!
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- A message from Thad -- Thad Matta, 15:40:34 03/24/03 Mon (cache-rl02.proxy.aol.com/152.163.189.98)
Ummmm....well I know it's tough but, ummmm.....we got spanked when we played a real team with some ummmmm....big men. Poor little Davie ummmmm......couldn't hang with those ummmmmm......big boys from ummmmmmm....Maryland. I had to run back to the ummmmm.... locker room and try to ummmmmm....get Davie to stop crying and ummmmmmm....come back out on the court and ummmmmmmm.....show a little bit of ummmmmm....class. He said "Class, I've never taken one at Xavier". I said "ummmmmm....no Davie. I mean ummmmmmm....shake the Maryland players ummmmmm....hands and tell them ummmmmm....good game. The way they ummmmmmm....abused your ass it's the ummmmmm....least you could do. He told me he'd always been a whinning ummmmmm....punk and he'd always be a whinning ummmmmm....punk. Oh well ummmmmm....that Davie for you. I wish ummmmmm...we could have played Fordham or ummmmmmmm.....Duquesne. Davie seemed to always do ummmmmm.... better against that ummmmmm.... level of ummmmmm....talent.
We'll be ummmmmm....back next ummmmmmm.... year. We've got a ummmmmm....great recruiting class ummmmmm.... coming in next ummmmmm.... season. The kid from ummmmmm...Ryle is listed as the ummmmm.... 175th best player in ummmmmm... Northern ummmmmm... Kentucky. We beat out ummmmmm.... Eastern Kentucky and ummmmmmm... Thomas More for this ummmmmm....sleeper. He'll be great with the ummmmmmm... kid no one has ever heard of from ummmmm...Indiana with the ummmmmm... bum knee.
Oh man ummmmmmm... has Clemson ummmmmmm.... called yet? How about ummmmmm... Georgia? Anyone? Please God ummmmmm....anybody?
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- Congratulations TJ Ford on being named the Naismith Player of the Year -- Naismith Award Committee, 00:34:13 03/25/03 Tue (cache-dm07.proxy.aol.com/205.188.209.75)
We at the Naismith Award Committee would like to take this opportunity to congratulate TJ Ford, from the University of Texas, on winning this prestigious award. We at the committee felt obligated to give the award to someone who has played at a high level of Division 1 against the top competition. We did not feel the award would be represented that way by giving it to someone who plays in high school gyms against 6-5 power fowards and puts up 20 points against guys with welding degrees. Plus it helps to give the award to someone people around the country have actually seen play before. Congratulations Mr Ford on this honor.
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- Anyone is the A 10 need a big man? -- Ryan Randle, 20:23:54 03/24/03 Mon (cache-dm07.proxy.aol.com/205.188.209.75)
I'm thinking about transferring to the Atlantic 10 Conference. If that over-rated bum David West is the best that league has to offer, I'll average 40. I've never scored on anyone so easily in my life. Turnarounds, blow-bys, up and under, anyway I wanted all night long. I wish it was that easy in the ACC. I guess that's how it is when you play Fordham and Duquesne every night.
So like I said, I'd be interested in moving to the A 10. I'll only consider Temple, UMass, St Joe's or Dayton though. Those are the only four schools in the conference I'd ever heard of before the brackets came out. Hell, I thought they messed up and put us in the Division 2 tourney when I first saw we were playing Xavier. Come to think of it though, didn't you guys make a Sweet 16 back when I was like 5. Long time ago, can't really remember.
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