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Date Posted: 20:52:25 02/02/06 Thu
Author: Sheepdog
Subject: Re: NOT Rubbish!
In reply to: Brainwashed Sheep 's message, "Re: NOT Rubbish!" on 21:47:06 01/30/06 Mon

>Sheepdog you are completely brainwashed and there is
>nothing I can do for you son (or daughter whatever).

Sheepdog: Did I ask for you to do anything for me Daddy (or Mamma whatever)? Uh...no.
You are not my God, nor my Savior, nor are you the one who hears my prayers and answers them.
As for your accusation against me (brainwashed), I would have to humbly say... judge not lest ye be judged.

>I will add that it is sad how you do not even realize
>that you never addressed 90% of my arguments yet still
>typed a virtual novel.

I didn't have to address 90%. I only disagree with a big fat 10% of what you wrote. I agree with all the scripture you quoted, just not your slanted view on them.

>When proven wrong....

(Again, you are not my God nor my source of proof.
I do believe in Paul's words about the importance of proving all things. He was given proof through the power of the Holy Ghost and by revelation directly from God. That's the proof I base all of my beliefs and life on. When I come to a verse in the Bible that I do not understand, I do not trust you or any other man to give me all the correct answers. I do, however, trust in prayer and the answers I get directly from God. This is what works for me and when I die, it will be that same powerful, kind,and familiar voice that I will recognize.)

>or challanged you simply retreat into your programmed
>defensive mechanisms.

Ohhh ya "programmed". You falsely accuse me again of being brainwashed. Be careful there cowboy, it's stuff like that that you answer to later.

> Attack the argument, not the
>person, and you will have more credibility.

I don't recall attacking the person. Be spacific. Where did I attack you?

> Hopefully
>you employ a similar level of finesse when
>brainwashing new Mormon recruits?

What do you hope I do?
Is encouraging new Mormon recruits to humbly get down on their knees and ask the God that gave them life, if it's all true, brainwashing? No.

>I will say a prayer that you would have the haze
>lifted some day Lord willing.

I appreciate that, it has work in the past. Don't forget to add "THY will, not mine be done" when you close this prayer for me. While you are down there explaining to God how wise you are and how brainwashed I am, tell Him that He ought to quit being so good to us brainwashed Mormons....It just makes us think He's for us and not against us.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: NOT Rubbish! -- Judgemental Mental, 09:48:08 02/07/06 Tue

>As for your accusation against me (brainwashed), I
>would have to humbly say... judge not lest ye be
>judged.



Oh heaven help those who have a backbone! lmao

According to your silly logic no one is allowed to have an opinion about anything (but I am sure your walls are up and your anti logic shield is already at full force so you may not understand this...I will try to spoon feed it to you).

For instance, YOU are now not allowed to say "I disagree with the Greek Orthodox belief system!" because then you are being "judgemental". You may not use the exact word "brainwashed" but the meaning is implied, since people really do believe it, and according to you would be misguided in that beliefe... hence "Brainwashed". (again the spoon feeding is necessary to avert your anti-logic wall).

I imagine this twisted form of logic and misuse of scripture is exactly how the Mormon leaders keep you dumbed down? Remeber, NEVER QUESTION ANYTHING LEST YE BE QUESTIONED AND FLOGGED IN THE TEMPLE! (sarcasm in case you didnt get it).

So apply your logic and silly cliche to your own thought process before spouting off and making yourself look like a moron.

A judgement would be me then saying "therefore you will burn in hell sinner!" Or perhaps "since sheepdog is nearly hopelessly brainwashed, he is a BAD person!"

Which I clearly did NOT do.

Again by your logic, if I make a "judgement call" about a stop light, seeing that it is indeed RED, I will elect to STOP at that light. You, being seemingly afraid to take a stand for fear of being "judgemental" may just sail right through the intersection and cause someone or yourself some serious harm. Just like with your misguided faith. Saying your faith is misguided and casting a character judgement on you are two totally different things. But of course, then you would not be able to spout off overused cliches in your responses?
You can tell in many cases these same people are the ones who are afraid to speak up, afraid of being wrong, afraid of what others think, afraid of not being "PC", and just generally lack backbone or leadership qualities. Note, not a judgement on these people as being "bad or good". Just an observation of their personality types. But maybe I am talking to a wall here... I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you understand the simple words here.

Your kneejerk reaction only indicates the doubts you must have lurking in the back of your mind over the validity of the Mormon faith.

Lastly, calling your response "humble" really is the biggest laugh of my day so far!

lol... oh man... lol

But don't worry. God will most likely save you as long as you believe in Christ Jesus... even if the other 50% of your beilefs are jabberwocky.

(wow I really kind of beat your brains in there... sorry bout that!)

good luck out there. you'll need it!

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: NOT Rubbish! -- Sheepdog, 19:33:17 02/15/06 Wed

.... judge not lest ye be
>>judged.


>According to your silly logic no one is allowed to
>have an opinion about anything

SD: No, that is not true. Everyone is allowed an opinion. I am just not willing to base my salvation on your opinion.
I am only interested in God's opinion.
Men's opinions are guesses and I can guess as well as the next guy.
I know that throwing around ideas/opinions can lead to truth if you are tuned in to the promptings of the Lord. But life is too short to waste too much time on the same subject and just kick around the same old guesses, don't you think? I didn’t want to rely on a guess anymore when it came to this faith.
My point in saying judge not, is that I think you ought to consider whether it may be you that is the brain washed one before you accuse me of it.

>>>(but I am sure your>walls are up

SD: In the Bible they call it a hedge : )

>>>and your anti logic shield is already at
>full force so you may not understand this...I will try
>to spoon feed it to you).
>
SD: Let my wipe the drool off my chin, loosen my helmet strap, and put the cork back on the fork so that I don't get hurt. Okay, you big smart man, teach this uneducated dumb dumb something she's not been able to learn till now

WWW
I - - I

I__=_I

>>>For instance, YOU are now not allowed to say "I
>disagree with the Greek Orthodox belief system!"
>because then you are being "judgmental".

SD: Jesus said those words about judgment that I quoted and applied to you. You'd have to know the context of the conversation to "get" what he (and I) mean by it. Obviously, it is not a sin to make judgments, I never thought it was. It is what we are here on earth to do. Jesus said those words, YET he said many judgmental things about others, right? And so did his followers. It is not a sin to judge, but ya better be careful and make sure it is a righteous/truthful judgment you make of another.
So, if you are going to say that I am brainwashed when it comes to religion, then you’d better know it and not be guessing/believing/hoping. If God didn’t reveal to you that I am, in FACT, a misguided, brainwashed soul, then don’t accuse me and risk being judged by God in the last day as a false accuser. Do you get what I mean here?

>>>since people really do believe it (GOrthodoxy), and
>according to you would be misguided in that belief...
>hence ...

SD: Again, a "belief" is a word that means "a guess". I do not "believe" in Christ. I KNOW who he is and what he is and I know it not because somebody said it was so. I know it because I have been given proof to support the belief in him that I started out with.
I do not “believe” the Book of Mormon to be true either. I once “believed” but now have been given proof that it is. I know you guys are always saying how we misguided Mormons believe in a “different Jesus” and I always say that I like this Jesus because he doesn’t just leave us alone to guess what is right. He’ll actually show us when we are asking questions intently and sincerely.
If anybody "believes" in Greek Orthodoxy. Fine. Have they had this specific belief verified with proof from Christ Himself? Do they have hundreds of thousands who will swear to the fact that God literally appeared or spoke from heaven to them individually and said that it was His authorized church? I haven't seen it. I have seen that men debated doctrine and fought and shed blood about it all. What happened to revelation? It wasn't there. Opinions/beliefs sure were.
I really don't care if people believe what I say about Mormonism. I know that they do not HAVE to believe me. All they need do is ask God about it and they can hear Him for themselves. How is that brainwashing?

>>I imagine this twisted form of logic and misuse of
>scripture is exactly how the Mormon leaders keep you
>dumbed down?
SD: You can guess and imagine all you like. You said it.... "I imagine".
Imagine, guess, and believe whatever you want.
I clearly do understand that scripture. I used it in correct context too. I can't help it if you took what I said and misunderstood.

>>Remember, NEVER QUESTION ANYTHING LEST YE
>BE QUESTIONED AND FLOGGED IN THE TEMPLE! (sarcasm in
>case you didn't get it).

SD: I know that big boys like yourself like to convince yourselves (or guess) (or imagine) that none of us question anything. Fact is many of us are where we are because we dared question EVERYTHING. Have you questioned? There is no sin in questioning and Mormons teach that people must find out for themselves from God about this faith.

>So apply your logic and silly cliche to your own
>thought process before spouting off and making
>yourself look like a moron.

SD: Talk about driving a subject into the ground! Are you done yet?

>A judgement would be me then saying "therefore you
>will burn in hell sinner!" Or perhaps "since sheepdog
>is nearly hopelessly brainwashed, he is a BAD person!"
>
>Which I clearly did NOT do.

SD: You made some accusations.
Guess what? I don't care what you guess I am. My feelings are not hurt. Why should they be. You are simply sharing your opinion and opinions do not affect me because I know what I am.

>>Again by your logic, .........

SD(a very long rambling repeat follows these 4 words...)
Whew. You are a windy guy. Are ya done????

>Your kneejerk reaction only indicates the doubts you
>must have lurking in the back of your mind over the
>validity of the Mormon faith.

SD: Yet another guess. A wrong one.

>Lastly, calling your response "humble" really is the
>biggest laugh of my day so far!

SD: Laugh all ya like: ) I like happy guys.

>>But don't worry. God will most likely save you as
>long as you believe in Christ Jesus... even if the
>other 50% of your beliefs are jabberwocky.

SD: 2 more guesses : o.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: NOT Rubbish! -- Sound Mind, 13:35:53 02/17/06 Fri

>>>>since people really do believe it (GOrthodoxy), and
>>according to you would be misguided in that belief...
>>hence ...
>
>SD: Again, a "belief" is a word that means "a guess".
>I do not "believe" in Christ. I KNOW who he is and
>what he is and I know it not because somebody said it
>was so....

No actually it's not a "guess". My reference refers to the ENGLISH definition since that is the language we are using in this forum:

be·lieve ( P ) Pronunciation Key (b-lv)
v. be·lieved, be·liev·ing, be·lieves

v. intr.
1. To have firm faith, especially religious faith.

Additionally:

Let's examine The Bible where it states that ...whoever "BELIEVES" in Christ... is God saying that all you have to do is just "guess" that He is Lord? According to that verse, you don't need to KNOW anything. Belief, firm religios faith. That's the definition. If you want to call it "KNOW" then fine but we are talking about the same thing here regardless of the semantics and your inept attempt to thwart the truth and the WORD of GOD.

Just as your whole faith is built upon the foundation of semantic twistings of The BIBLE, your "arguments" display a microcosm of that environment. And just like your Mormon faith, you consistently contradict yourself. I just wish you could see it for yourself and break free. Maybe one day... God willing...

Logic 101: If you "KNOW" something then it is implied you also "BELIEVE" that same something.

OR are you saying that you KNOW your religion is correct but do not "BELIVE" it is? Now that sounds pretty silly doesn't it?

Beilef and Know are interchangable here.

Point being:

When you tell me to judge not lest I be judged, in calling you brainwashed, you fail to recognize that by default you "BELIEVE, KNOW, HAVE FAITH" that very same thing about me and every other non-Mormon on the planet.

You may not come out and say it, but since you "KNOW" you are right it follows that you "KNOW" everyone else is wrong. So before you call me out for being a harsh judge, KNOW that you are the exact same. GET IT?

Logic would dictate you to stop with the cliches as a form of debate.

So now in turn I would predict you to tell me that you do not BELIEVE what you KNOW. So the above does not apply to you! Just like you did initially in reverse!! Sheer Genius!!!

And yes, I am windy, but your inability to decipher the English language makes the lengthy explainations necessary.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: NOT Rubbish! -- Sheepdog, 20:37:54 02/19/06 Sun

SD: This is the definition that I found for the word “Belief”.

1: any cognitive content held as true; 2: a vague idea in which some confidence is placed;

People believe all sorts of things ARE true when they ARE NOT true. So these false beliefs can be called guesses. Faith is a hope in things that are true. But, there is such a thing as having a belief and a hope in something that is totally false. Is it still true faith? No. It’s a bad guess and holds a lot of disappointment for the person relying on it.
Paul was a religious man who believed in God but did not “believe” Christ was the Son of God. He fought against his followers. He guessed he was right. He had a firm belief he was right. He had faith that he was right. He was not right. He had guessed wrong. When he witnessed for himself and heard for himself from Christ’s own lips, he no longer held onto his former guesses.
After hearing from Jesus for himself, he no longer had to rely on beliefs for or against Jesus. He had replaced false beliefs with knowledge. Some people guess right and their good guess leads them to more knowledge which suports their true faith and true beliefs.

My point to you is... You guess that Mormonism is not of God. It’s what you want to believe and so you do. It is not because God has come to you in a vision or even inspired you at all about it.
My comment on this is... If you’d had an experience like Pauls and could speak with knowledge on the subject, fine, I’d listen. But you have no such witness from God on the subject. So, why should I care what your guess is? On the other hand, I know hundreds of upright people, who are lovers of God, who would rather die than lie, who live what they believe, who have indeed had experiences like Paul when it comes to this faith. They will swear to all that is holy that what has happened to them is the truth. I believe them. I believe them because it is the same for me and I know that I am not lying about what I have seen and heard for myself from God.
I could say that I believe in the power of prayer, but the truth is that I have actual knowledge about the power of prayer.
I could say that I believe in the resurrection and in life after death, but the truth is that I have been given proof that their truly is life after death.
I believed it for about 30 years before the belief/faith in it was verified.
There are many things I firmly believe in, that may turn out to be a little off because I haven’t received any actual knowledge on the subject but have put together pieces that seem to fit. I try to be careful to use the word “believe” and not “know” in these instances.

**Additionally:
Let's examine The Bible where it states that ...whoever "BELIEVES" in Christ... is God saying that all you have to do is just "guess" that He is Lord? According to that verse, you don't need to KNOW anything.
SD: If you had read the whole of what I wrote, you would not have hyper reacted to my statements. I clearly wrote that knowledge about God begins with a belief.
Christ said “believe and follow”. He also promises some rewards/proof if a person will give this belief a chance.
Same as He does with, this, His Church.

**t as your whole faith is built upon the foundation of semantic twistings of The BIBLE, your "arguments" display a microcosm of that environment.
SD: Thats a “belief” of yours, which you have not learned from God.

**And just like your Mormon faith, you consistently contradict yourself. I just wish you could see it for yourself and break free. Maybe one day... God willing...
SD: God is not willing. I have asked Him and He has spoken and there is nothing that can pry my body or soul from it. It is a priceless gift and I will forever be grateful that His gospel and Government is back on the earth, just as He promised it would be.

**Belief and Know are interchangable here.
SD: Oh no they are not. There is a huge difference in “beliefs” which can be wrong guesses and “knowledge” which is based in truth. There is a huge difference in beliefs and false beliefs, that’s all I’m saying. Read again what I wrote about Paul’s experience with beliefs and knowledge. Sometimes we know things and, sure, we say that we “believe” them. But in reality we know them and don’t simply believe them.
I say that you have no real knowledge about what Mormonism is to God, that’s all.

**Point being:

When you tell me to judge not lest I be judged, in calling you brainwashed, you fail to recognize that by default you "BELIEVE, KNOW, HAVE FAITH" that very same thing about me and every other non-Mormon on the planet.
You may not come out and say it, but since you "KNOW" you are right it follows that you "KNOW" everyone else is wrong. So before you call me out for being a harsh judge, KNOW that you are the exact same. GET IT?

SD: I never said that you were a harsh judge. I said you were a false judge. Get it? The difference between you and me is that you think I am offended at your harshness/false judgment, but you are the only one here that is offended because this is personal for you. I am not offended because I am not here to say that I am smarter than you or more special than you. It is not personal for me and I do not care what you think of me personally. My motive is only to defend my Lord and challenge you to believe in Him enough to trust that he could show you who the Mormons truly are and then you would not have to guess at it.
I do indeed know that you are wrong, yet it gives me no personal pride to know it. I’m not ashamed to say any of this because it is the truth. I only wish you would approach the living God about it. I do not really “believe” that you ever will, but there may be someone out there reading this that will and that is the only reason I debate the issue with you.
You say I’m wrong. I say you’re wrong.
Now can we discuss what “proof” is and where it is found?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: NOT Rubbish! -- Sound Mind, 13:41:52 02/17/06 Fri

>>>>since people really do believe it (GOrthodoxy), and
>>according to you would be misguided in that belief...
>>hence ...
>
>SD: Again, a "belief" is a word that means "a guess".
>I do not "believe" in Christ. I KNOW who he is and
>what he is and I know it not because somebody said it
>was so....

No actually it's not a "guess". My reference refers to the ENGLISH definition since that is the language we are using in this forum:

be·lieve ( P ) Pronunciation Key (b-lv)
v. be·lieved, be·liev·ing, be·lieves

v. intr.
1. To have firm faith, especially religious faith.

Additionally:

Let's examine The Bible where it states that ...whoever "BELIEVES" in Christ... is God saying that all you have to do is just "guess" that He is Lord? According to that verse, you don't need to KNOW anything. Belief, firm religios faith. That's the definition. If you want to call it "KNOW" then fine but we are talking about the same thing here regardless of the semantics and your inept attempt to thwart the truth and the WORD of GOD.

Just as your whole faith is built upon the foundation of semantic twistings of The BIBLE, your "arguments" display a microcosm of that environment. And just like your Mormon faith, you consistently contradict yourself. I just wish you could see it for yourself and break free. Maybe one day... God willing...

Logic 101: If you "KNOW" something then it is implied you also "BELIEVE" that same something.

OR are you saying that you KNOW your religion is correct but do not "BELIVE" it is? Now that sounds pretty silly doesn't it?

Beilef and Know are interchangable here.

Point being:

When you tell me to judge not lest I be judged, in calling you brainwashed, you fail to recognize that by default you "BELIEVE, KNOW, HAVE FAITH" that very same thing about me and every other non-Mormon on the planet.

You may not come out and say it, but since you "KNOW" you are right it follows that you "KNOW" everyone else is wrong. So before you call me out for being a harsh judge, KNOW that you are the exact same. GET IT?

Logic would dictate you to stop with the cliches as a form of debate.

So now in turn I would predict you to tell me that you do not BELIEVE what you KNOW. So the above does not apply to you! Just like you did initially in reverse!! Sheer Genius!!!

And yes, I am windy, but your inability to decipher the English language makes the lengthy explainations necessary.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: To my Sound-Minded comrade -- Lord Veritas, 16:03:59 02/16/06 Thu

Hello Sound Mind,
I would no longer continue this argument with Sheepdog if I were you because simply put, she is not on your level when it comes to debate. Would you accept a challenge to fight from a six year old kid? Obviously not. So why waste time placing your adult mind in combat with one who is mentally six years old? No one likes getting the last word in more than me, but in this case, it is simply not worth it. Not matter how many times you prove her wrong, she will just bounce back with something more illogical, obtuse and incorrect. So save yourself a lot of time and headaches and find someone more mature and reasonable to debate spiritual matters with.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: To my Sound-Minded comrade -- Sound Mind, 13:46:59 02/17/06 Fri

Thanks. And yes of course you are correct. The time would be better spent on someone with the ability to reason.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: To my Sound-Minded comrade -- Quizno210hopper, 15:45:21 03/20/06 Mon

I like debates. I like to challenge my notions. I like to discuss the Word of God in a manner consistent with the principles espoused in the very scriptures we all quote from. From my perspective set up one argument at a time. Argue until it is either agreed on or diametrically opposed rational arguments are developed then do "rock-paper-scissors" or go your seperate way on the issue.

I don't think teaming up and cutting on someone because you perceive yourself to be superior benefits any discussion.

Grasshopper

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