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Date Posted: 19:39:42 03/31/04 Wed
Author: mt. healthy mountaineer
Subject: Re: Are you guys buying this stuff?
In reply to: stu 's message, "Re: Are you guys buying this stuff?" on 18:32:41 03/30/04 Tue

STU:When I spoke about the devestation of Germany after WWI, I was refering to the Treaty of Versailles. Their military was disbanded, they were made to pay debts that they could not possibly pay (utter poverty and humiliation) and much of their territory was taken from them. The end of WWII was much different. The allies learned from the past. They helped to rebuild Germany and treated them fairly. Big difference.

Good thing the "Coalition of the Willing" is doing the same in Aghanistan and Iraq.

It's funny you used the example of a navy seaman to debunk my analogy. Navy Seals are trained to commit terrorist acts! I also think it is contradictory to emphasize the supposed difference between "terrorist acts" and "acts of war," and then say that Afghanistan declared war on the U.S. with an act of terrorism. I meant that they could not possibly commit to a legitimate war against the U.S. (Invasion, air attacks, occupation, overthrow - like the wars we wage.)

Stu - re-read your paragraph. You have swerved into the answer - what I've been saying all along! Terrorism is not "legitimate war" - you are right! I absolutely, 100% agree with you! The Navy Seals do do "black ops" and other covert acts, but there is a difference between that and terrorism. Have you ever seen the Dirty Dozen? That's not terrorism - that is war. Am I so naive as to think we've never soiled our hands with a bad "black ops" event? No, or course not. Then again, has Al-Qaeda ever stood up to face their enemy straight on? No, women and children and the unsuspecting are easier targets.


Yes, Saddam used the weapons that he bought from the U.S. against the Kurds. The U.S. government couldn't have cared less. However, the U.S. is the only country to ever have used an atomic bomb. We have more blood on our hands than Iraq.


Woah now - "legitimate war." We can debate forever on the A-bombs and if they actually saved lives. Somehow, I can guess your position and I can tell you that I know they saved lives. I've met doctors and corpsmen who were building the MASSIVE hospitals (bigger than any others designed during the war - thank goodness they never had to be completed) in preperation for the American casualties that would have been incurred during a direct invasion of Japan and I can guarantee you that the Japanese casualties would have been higher).

Also, the U.S. military used depleted uranium casings for their missiles in the first Iraq war. Straight-up war crime.

Really? A war crime? I know for a fact that every modern military, including Iraq's (until its defeat) USES deplated Uranium shells. The Chinese, the French, the British, esp. the Russians. They are a common weapon in tank batallions. Some people are under the misconception that they are little nuclear weapons - they are basically just giant bullets filled with depleted Uranium. Why? Because it is heavier than lead and will punch holes in tank armor.

Look into the effects of these missiles on Iraqi civilians as well as U.S. soldiers.


I've seen the reports as well. Its amazing how all of these people who weren't within a hundred miles of the battle sites and aren't even in the prevailing downwind patterns get sick from depleted Uranium.

I've even heard that the Sadaam is to blame since he used some of his shells to put down the uprisings after Gulf War I.


So what are these vast differences between cults and religions? What was Christianity at its genesis? A cult. What would the Unification Church be if it had 60 million members? A religion.

Cult - system of religious worship.

Religion - any system of faith in and worship of a supreme being or a god or gods.

Nothing wrong with my dictionary. However, I will say that dictionaries are limited when trying to define divergent concepts like God, Religion, Truth, Reality, etc...

The term "cult" has evolved away from your bland dictionary definition.

I found this thorough deginition at this website: http://www.religioustolerance.org/cults.htm

The common meaning is generally the last meaning, I would say.

Meanings of the Word CULT
There is no generally accepted, single, current definition for the word "cult," or for many other religious terms. This leads to confusion over the meanings of certain religious terms, such as Christian, cult hell, heaven, occult, Paganism, salvation, Witch, Witchcraft, Unitarian, Universalist, Voodoo, etc. A reader must often look at the context in which the word is used in order to guess at the intent of the writer.

In the newsgroup alt.usage.english, terms like this one are often called "skunk words." They have varied meanings to different people. In fact, they have so many meanings that they often cause misunderstandings wherever they are used. Unfortunately, most people do not know this, and naturally assume that the meaning that they have been taught is the universal definition of the term.

Perhaps the most confusing and dangerous religious term is "Cult". The word is derived from the Latin noun "cultus" which is related to the Latin verb "colere" which means "to worship or give reverence to a deity." Thus, in its original meaning, the term "cult" can be applied to any group of religious believers: Southern Baptists or Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses or Catholics, Hindus or Muslims. However, the term has since been assigned at least 7 new and very different meanings. The original meaning of "cult" remains positive; later definitions are neutral, negative, or extremely negative:

Positive Meaning: Theological usage: Oxford English Dictionary defined "cult" as: "worship; reverential homage rendered to a divine being or beings"
"a particular form or system of religious worship; especially in reference to its external rites and ceremonies"
devotion or homage to a particular person or thing."

This is the historical meaning of the word, but is rarely today heard outside of religious circles. A reference to the "Cult of Mary" appeared in a newspaper report on the Pope's 1999 visit to the Americas. It simply means that the Pope devotes special attention to the Virgin Mary.


Neutral Meanings: Sociological usage: A small religious group that exists in a state of tension with the predominant religion. Hinduism might be considered a cult in North America; Christianity might be considered a cult in India.
Additional sociological usage: An innovative, fervent religious group, as contrasted with more established and conventional sects and denominations.
The Observer: An English newspaper seemed to use the term to refer to any small religious group, no matter what its age or teachings. 1
General religious usage: A small, recently created, religious organization which is often headed by a single charismatic leader and is viewed as an spiritually innovative group. A cult in this sense may simply be a new religious movement on its way to becoming a denomination. The Christian religion, as it existed in 30 CE might be considered a cult involving one leader and 12 or 70 devoted disciples as followers. The Mormon denomination was started in the 19th century by Joseph Smith and a few followers; it has grown to become an established denomination in excess of ten million members.

Negative Meanings: Evangelical Christian and Counter-Cult Movement usage: Any religious group which accepts most but not all of the historical Christian doctrines (the divinity of Jesus, virgin birth, the Trinity, salvation, etc.). The implication is that the cult's theology is invalid; they teach heresy. Under this definition, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Mormons), Unification Church and Jehovah's Witnesses to be cults. But they would not classify Wicca as such, because it is not associated with Christianity. The earliest use of this meaning of the word "Cult" is believed to be a 1938 book "The Chaos of the Cults" by J.K. VanBaalen. On the other hand, new religious groups such as the Mormons, Unification Church and Jehovah's Witnesses generally regard themselves to be the true Christian church. They view all other denominations as being in error. Thus, one groups true church is another group's cult.
Fundamentalist Christian usage: Some Fundamentalists would accept the Evangelical definition of cult defined above. Others might brand any religious group which deviates from historical Protestant Christian beliefs as a cult. This definition would include the Mormon Church, Wicca, mainline and liberal Christian denominations, Islam, Hinduism, and all of the other religions of the world. Over 70% of humanity would belong to cults, by this definition.
Mental Health Groups and anti-cult movement usage: A small number of therapists, research psychologists, self-taught individuals, etc., form the anti-cult movement (ACM) They attempt to raise public consciousness about what they see as dangerous and authoritarian mind control cults and doomsday cults. Many do not care about the faith group's theology. They target only what they see as deceptive practices, and dangerous psychological pressure techniques, such as brainwashing. The ACM appears to hold opinions about the effectiveness of brainwashing that are not shared by the mental-health community generally. They see mind control/doomsday cults as a widespread social problem.

Very negative meaning: Popular, media usage: (very negative meaning) a small, evil religious group, often with a single charismatic leader, which engages in brainwashing and other mind control techniques, believes that the end of the world is imminent, and collects large amounts of weaponry in preparation for a massive war. Often used as a synonym for mind control religious group or for doomsday cult. The earliest use of this meaning of the word is believed to have been in a 1965 book by Walter Martin "The Kingdom of the Cults" (revised and expanded posthumously by Hank Hanegraaff in 2002).


We have seen "cult" used to refer to Evangelical denominations, the Roman Catholic Church, Unification Church, Church of Scientology, United Church of Christ, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Wiccans, other Neopagans and many other faith groups. The term is essentially meaningless.

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