VoyForums
[ Show ]
Support VoyForums
[ Shrink ]
VoyForums Announcement: Programming and providing support for this service has been a labor of love since 1997. We are one of the few services online who values our users' privacy, and have never sold your information. We have even fought hard to defend your privacy in legal cases; however, we've done it with almost no financial support -- paying out of pocket to continue providing the service. Due to the issues imposed on us by advertisers, we also stopped hosting most ads on the forums many years ago. We hope you appreciate our efforts.

Show your support by donating any amount. (Note: We are still technically a for-profit company, so your contribution is not tax-deductible.) PayPal Acct: Feedback:

Donate to VoyForums (PayPal):

[ Login ] [ Contact Forum Admin ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time | Archives: [1] ]

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Date Posted: 08:32:33 05/22/99 Sat
Author: Kevin
Subject: Re: time & foreknowledge (unaswered)
In reply to: daniel 's message, "Re: time & foreknowledge (unaswered)" on 05:43:32 05/21/99 Fri

> It is this simple.
>
> <--Eternity Past---Creation-X---NOW---Eternity
> Future-->
> God has no beginning.
> Our bginnning is marked X.
>
> Both God and man are bound by X.
>

Define X. It appears post creation pre now, though I assume that is not the intent.

> The number 1 evidence that you can spaek too to prove
> that God is outside of time and that he knows the
> future is "the Theory of Relativity"?
>
> Certainly the bible would shed light on such a
> critical aspect of God's character.
>

(Gen 1:1 KJV) In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

General relativity tells us that "In the beginning" includes time. What does the Bible say;

(Heb 11:3 KJV) Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

You and I can not put time in a bottle, but we can observe it's passage. It can be measured. Therefor according to this verse our time must be included in the list of created things that were made from what is not observable.


> I have addressed the translation of the words "time",
> and "earth" with little or no response from you. I

"Earth" is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Don't cloud the issue.

"Time" The biblical God is not governed by time because He is the Lord of time. God is in time in the sense that He is sovereignly present in all the events of time, confronting His people with His warnings and His promises. However, this is not the same as saying that God is caught up in time or governed by it. Humankind cannot bind Him to special sacred times; rather, He encounters humankind in each moment of their temporal existence, offering each new day as an opportunity for judgment in the event of their willful stubbornness or for redemption in the event of their repentance.


> have addressed the issues of failed prophecy, the fact
> that God is not immutable, and I have brought up the
> notion that Greek mnysticism has poisoned Christianity.
>
> You have not addressed any of the points I have made.

In reverse order;

"Poisoned Christianity" like YEC has done? Your opinion, irrelevant to this discussion.

"God is not immutable" I agree with the following, I think you will as well. From my Bible dictionary;

In secular thought, God's immutability connotes innate divine perfection and completeness. Since God is complete in and of Himself, relation to anything other than Himself is an addition to His completeness, an addition which is a philosophical impossibility. Since relationship requires change or response on the part of the beings in relationship, God, perfectly complete and completely perfect, cannot relate to that which is outside Himself. This kind of God, who is possessed by an immutability which prohibits relationship to His creation, is not the God portrayed by the Bible.

Biblical Teaching God, as the Scriptures portray Him, responds to the needs of His creation and, therefore, changes in the sense that He relates to what is not God.

The greatest religious significance of the unchanging God is His eternal stance of salvation toward His creation. He is eternally faithful to His people. He therefore repents of judgment when persons answer His call to obedience, as did the Ninevites in Jonah 3. The unchanging God of salvation is the eternal, free God who reveals Himself in the eternal Son (John 1:1,18). As such, he is the immutable God who comes to seek and save the lost (Mark 10:45), the God who is the same "yesterday, and today, and for ever (Heb. 13:8).

"Failed prophecy" handled below.

> > The Work of God disagrees. I am not going to debate
> > YEC with you.
> >
>
> The above statement is the true OEC hermeneutic.
>

Now you understand. The Work and the Word must agree or we have a wrong understanding of one or both.

> Please provide scitpural support as to the failed
> prophecies of Daniel, Jonah, and Jesus.
>
> 70week Prophecy
> Ninevah not destroyed
> This Generation not passing
> Some standing not tasting death

IMHO the last two are not failed prophecies - just wrong expectations of what the fulfillment entailed. Ninevah was destroyed, agreed it was not in 40 days - however that was due to the people's response to Jonah's message. 70 week I would have to check on this, but I suppose that is not the point. What you are really saying is my view of time makes my model invalid. So what did I propose;

God who is outside of our time (no beginning and no end), created the heaven and the earth, "In the beginning". This beginning includes our time line. God then subjected himself to operate within our time line with regard to man. His choice. Jesus was chosen before time to be the ransom for our sins. Various other decisions were made before our time was created as well. But, all the prophecies given directly to man were given in time, as such they are subject to it. So failed prophecies occur as God appears to change His mind, in time, yet God is unchanging outside of our time.

I see no conflict here.

By the way God repenting in Genesis 6 is generally agreed not to imply God was sorry he made man. Why would Jesus have been ordained before the world began to be our ransom if God did not know man would need a redeemer. Instead repent in this verse means God was filled with sorrow over the making of man. Our sin hurts God - and He is sorrowful from our wickedness. But He never repents of offering redemption. Thank You Jesus!

>
> Explain why Jesus and Peter used the Flood story as
> one that aligns with a "global" judgment and
> destruction.

I am more inclined to accept a universal flood position rather than a local one. That does not mean Mt. Everest was covered with 20 feet of water. Some of the others would have to tackle this from a local standpoint.

>
> Please explain why the 1st Use rule and Frequency
> Rule, Redaction Criticism, , Historical Criticism and
> Literary Criticism cannot be applied to the use of
> "Earth" in the first eight chapters of the bible as it
> relates to the desired purpose of the flood.

We are not talking about the flood yet. These are manmade tools to interpret the Scripture. When they disagree with the Work of God I choose to believe God.

>
> Explain why Prayer is effective or ineffective.

Didn't respond because it is a distraction from Genesis 1:1-5.

>
> Explain the passage:
>
> Rom 11:20-21
> 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken
> off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but
> fear.
> 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He
> may not spare you either.
> (NKJ)

Many Jews rejected Jesus. By doing so they proved they were not really Abraham's children - they were Jews in name only. In the same manner, you might be a Christian in name only. Instead of trusting Jesus alone, you might be trusting in the traditions of men.

>
> I could on for an hour. The point is that you cannot

I am sure you could, and probably will.

> answer these questions. If you can please do so.

I did.

> Understanding "The Plot" of the bible and necessary
> literalism will bring to a crystal clear view about
> the purpose of the bible. That purpose does not allow
> for OEC.

Your opinion, which you are entitled to.

>
> I would prefer being able to answer all the above,
> then to have to hope and wait for science to figure it
> out.

Me too, but ain't it great to have God's Word backed up by His Works! Bless the Lord oh my soul.

>
> Daniel

Explain the end time revelations from your model's perspective, in particular the first hand descriptions of the time yet to come, including the judgment, and the new Jerusalem.

Peace
Kevin

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

[ Contact Forum Admin ]

Forum timezone: GMT-8
VF Version: 3.00b, ConfDB:
Before posting please read our privacy policy.
VoyForums(tm) is a Free Service from Voyager Info-Systems.
Copyright © 1998-2019 Voyager Info-Systems. All Rights Reserved.