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Subject: Dan. Chap. 4 vss. 28-33 Post #23 Author: Hillbilly [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] Date Posted: 11:42:30 08/08/09 Sat Daniel 4:28-33 All this came upon the king Nebuchadnezzar. 29 At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon. 30 The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty? 31 While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee. 32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will. 33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws. Time tends to make us forget painful experiences or embarrassing moments. Warnings seem to lose their impact and grip as one gets further from the admonition. Shimei sealed his own death warrant by leaving Jerusalem after three years time had lapsed from the warning from Solomon not to leave on pain of death. (1 Kings 2:36-46) Although he knew what the sentence was, time had taken the sharp edges of fear from the Kings warning. Solomon did not forget and with Nebuchadnezzar God did not forget. The warnings from God on people and nations are still in effect no matter how much time lapses. God says you do this and this will be your punishment. Nebuchadnezzar's moment had come. Swollen with pride Nebuchadnezzar strutted and crowed like a rooster at his own magnificence. Bragging as if he had built Babylon singlehandedly he said "I have built" "by the might of my power" and "for the honor of my majesty". . There was no humility and no room for the acknowledgment of God in his declarations. Can you imagine how startled Nebuchadnezzar was when he heard the voice from heaven while still bragging. Notice how we can again see the hand of "heavenly ones" in the carrying out of the decree from God. In verse 32 it says "And they shall drive thee from men". The antecedent will of necessity be the watchers and holy ones of verses 13, 17 and 23. I would call attention also to Dan. 2:43 with the pronoun "they". The statement is that they shall mingle but they shall not mix with the seed of men. Clearly we are being shown that man is not left to his own rule and devices when it comes to the governing of nations. Whether God rules through men as with Moses, Joshua, David and even the likes of Nebuchadnezzar or whether Satan rules through the Caesars, Alexander the Greats, or Belshazzars of this world we can rest assured there is a certain amount of predestination concerning nations that God has decreed will take place and they will take place. One only needs look at Israel as a nation and Job as an individual to see the spiritual warfare that is taking place on this earth between God and His people, including angels and the Devil and his crowd including his angels. In Daniel chapter 10 we have a vivid picture of the warfare which is truly astonishing in it's implications. In verses 5 and 6 Daniel sees a "man" who closely matches the description of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords of Revelation 1:13-15. This "man" has tried to come and help him for 21 days (vs.3) but has been hindered by the "prince of the kingdom of Persia" (vs. 13) and it is only after Michael (archangel) comes to help fight that the "man" is able to get to Daniel. In verse 20 we find that this "man" will go back after ministering to Daniel and fight some more with the prince of Persia and then fight with the prince of Grecia. Remember the order of nations in Daniel 2 was Babylon, Persia and then Greece. We see by this how that God and Satan intervene in nations to direct certain events. God has decreed and Satan tries to stop the decree. The general history of the world has been written and God is not going to let Satan alter prophecy. Hence we have in verse 32 that Nebuchadnezzar will be in his beast like state "until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will". In God sovereignty He for His purposes and according to His will places rulers in this world. Evil and good. This is hard for us to grasp and believe but this is what the verse states. It explains a lot. Satan my have his man in place but it is with God's permission. Just as Satan could not touch Job without God's permission Satan cannot act in fashions such as this without God's permissive will allowing such to take place. Matthew 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! Nebuchadnezzar has captured and plundered Israel. He has enslaved the majority of the people yet God calls him "my servant" in Jeremiah 43:10. When Nebuchadnezzar is humbled he is turned into the image of a beast that has the characteristics of and ox and an eagle. He has the heart of a beast (vs. 14) He grazes as an ox and his hair and nails closely resemble feathers and talons. His majesty is now that of an animal and he will live this way for probably seven years (vs. 16). The Bible tells us to humble ourselves in the sight of our Lord (James 4;10) or He can humble us His way. Nebuchadnezzar found out it is better to humble yourself than to wait for the Lord to do it. Have we learned that lesson or is God about to humble us? [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

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[> Subject: HB Author: JulPisacane [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:28:41 08/09/09 Sun Bragging as if he had built Babylon singlehandedly he said "I have built" While men continue to build their buildings even this day and giving no credit or thanks to God -- brings to mind the following verse: Except the Lord build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the Lord keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain. Psalm 127:1 And at the same time I am reminded of the Words of Jesus where we learn : Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also John 14 My mind is set on the things God builds. My heart and soul rejoice always in the promises of God. Great lesson served with a piece of "humble pie" at the end. The dessert at the end of this lesson goes well with my diet. Thank you for sharing. Love and blessings, Julie Last edited by author: Sun August 09, 2009 10:40:56   Edited 1 time.

[> [> Subject: Thanks Julie Author: Hillbilly [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 13:30:29 08/09/09 Sun Good verses and application of those verses to the post. We all get "I" trouble sometimes and it is then that God sees the need to humble us. I am glad you are doing as well as you are and pray those meds will do the trick and surgery can be avoided completely. All is in the hands of the Great Physician.

[> Subject: I think God is about to humble our nation... Author: dori [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 00:16:37 08/10/09 Mon ...once we stop humbling it ourselves. We keep bringing it down further and further. I felt kind of bad reading about Neb's downfall, though. He was actually so disillusioned that he really did think he was doing that empire building for God's and not for his own glory. We definitely can deceive ourselves, can't we?

[> [> Subject: Dori Author: Hillbilly [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 17:40:21 08/10/09 Mon As the saying goes "If God doesn't punish America for her sins He will have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah."

[> [> [> Subject: If God doesn't punish America for her sins, Author: Murray [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 08:20:14 08/12/09 Wed He would then have to apologize to Jesus. "And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." (I John 2:2)

[> [> [> Subject: Hi Murray Author: dori [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 21:02:23 08/12/09 Wed Very good point! Nice to see you here. How are things in your world? Been busy in mine.

[> [> [> [> Subject: dori Author: Murray [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 08:49:12 08/13/09 Thu Hi dori! Did I ever post here before? I think I may have. Thanks for the nice greeting! As to my point, I scratch my head sometimes when people, in effect, belittle the sacrifice of Jesus and misunderstand the grace which God extended to mankind through the death of his Son. As long as the church is still here, we have been given the ministry of reconciliation. The Scripture reads as follows: "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them,, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. (II Corinthians 5:19) If we have been given the ministry of reconciliation, we are called to proclaim reconciliation and non-imputation of sins through Christ. To, in effect, proclaim God's vengeance is the polar opposite of what we have been called to do. Did of did or did not God exact his vengeance against Jesus? I think He did. Otherwise, wouldn't the cross be a partial sacrifice? A sacrifice for some sins but not for others? My God does not do things half way! Last edited by author: Thu August 13, 2009 08:57:13   Edited 1 time.

[> [> [> [> Subject: I really never thought of it that way, Murray Author: dori [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 22:40:16 08/13/09 Thu I don't see the sacrifice that was exacted upon Jesus at the cross for our sins as vengeance on him from God--but rather the first step in the fulfillment of his plan for us.

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Ok, dori Author: Murray [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 22:48:32 08/13/09 Thu Fair point regardig use of the word vengeance. Exchange the words "God's wrath against sin" for vengeance then. Regardless, either you believe God poured all of his wrath out on Jesus for all sin once and for all or, alternatively, partially punished Jesus for sin and held some of his wrath against sin back to "punish America" or whatever. But, if you take the second option, you run up against this verse, "For such a High Priest was fitting for us, holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself." (Hebrews 7:26-27) Last edited by author: Thu August 13, 2009 23:31:33   Edited 1 time.

[> [> [> [> [> Subject: I see your point, but disagree with your twist or Author: dori [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:13:09 08/14/09 Fri interpretation on what was said. Those who say America will receive Godly judgement for slipping away from decent morality and allowing secularizm to take hold are using a different justification and it doesn't apply to your scriptural analogy, but to theirs. They are using the actions God took against Sodom and Gomorrah to warn us of the same fate, nothing more. Your point is well taken, too, but just a different matter that is still worthy of discussion. Do you care to expand more with it?

[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: dori Author: Murray [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:38:15 08/14/09 Fri It comes down to whether one views Jesus' sacrifice as adequate or inadequate.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Adequate or inadequate is not the point Author: Hillbilly [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 22:21:13 08/14/09 Fri The blood of Jesus is adequate to cleanse the world but the world must receive Jesus in order for the blood to be applied. There is no universal pardon because of Calvary. The pardon and cleansing from sins comes through confession and repentance calling on Jesus for salvation. God's mercy extended to Lot and family although they were not worthy (they were spared because of Abraham). Three partook of God's mercy and fled. The rest of the family did not. Lot's wife first left her heart and then her body in Sodom but she had the opportunity. The point has been missed as to the original statement which was relating what others have said. Hence as God does not show partiality to individuals, peoples or nations in matters of judgment He will punish America if she does not as a nation repent.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Putting words into the mouth of another - one of the oldest rthetorical dirty tricks in the book Author: Murray [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 07:57:17 08/15/09 Sat The Bible does not teach universal pardon and I would never say that. I'd love to discuss this topic with you more but not if you're going to resort to that kind of treachery.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Sir Author: Hillbilly [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 11:38:20 08/15/09 Sat I think if you will read a while on this forum you will find out it is totally without rancor or argument. It is a friendly room of love and fellowship around the word of God. If you think I was using treachery you are very much mistaken and I apologize if you took it that way. I have been posting here and visiting here for several years now and have never been accused of treachery nor do I use treachery. Sorry you took it that way. Topic is finished.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: apology accepted Author: Murray [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:32:08 08/18/09 Tue I appreciate your apology. Sorry I got so hot under the collar also. However, I don't believe in universal pardon/salvation and never said so. Therefore, to be accused of such is not taken kindly. Please accept my apology if my objection was perceived as being too strong and/or unfair.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Yes, the topic is finished Author: dori [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:34:22 08/15/09 Sat Murray, I am asking you to modify your tone or leave. This is our refuge from the name calling and actual treachery we have all encountered on other forums. You are welcome to stay and discuss things with us, but no one was twisting your words. If there was any twisting going on, it was by you. You chose to dissect a few words from a very long lesson to make an obscure point. I think this is a repeat of what happened the first time you came here. You stayed a short time, had words with someone--I imagine it was me--and then left. This is not a debate forum.... it is one of sharing and caring. You're welcome to share with us, but not welcome to pick fights. Thank you for your cooperation.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: interesting Author: Murray [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 10:48:02 08/16/09 Sun Doris, I have never in my life claimed that the Bible advocates "universal pardon" or that I believe in such a thing and yet someone can put those words into my mouth and I should just be nice about it? Then you side with the person that slandered me? Wow, that's stunning. I never took you for a person that would enable slander. Last edited by author: Sun August 16, 2009 11:24:21   Edited 1 time.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Murray, he didn't do that Author: dori [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 12:39:02 08/16/09 Sun He wasn't accusatory at all. In fact, he was very respectful in pointing out where he felt you erred. Maybe you should read your posts and see why someone would draw the conclusion that you were advocating universal salvation and reword them for clarity, rather than taking umbrage and calling him trecherous. There isn't a treacherous bone in the man's body. Shame on you for accusing him of it. I had enough of that kind of thing at R1 and so did Hillbilly. I would have thought you did, too. This is a place of sharing ideas and respecting the opinions of others and not a debate board. I don't allow any rancor here. You made a good beginning to a dialogue, but as soon as you were met with disagreement you took it personally. I thought spending months at Potpourri with Gene and Bob would have given you a tougher hide. You've been with them too long, methinks. Back off from your anger and sarcasm and share your thoughts with us. You're free to stay under those conditions.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: re: drawing the conclusion that I was advocating universal salvation Author: Murray [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 14:23:10 08/16/09 Sun Ok, that's fair. Tell me from where the conclusion that I believe in universal salvation comes and we'll go from there. I did not say that of course and will be fascinated to see how someone else could possibly arrive at that conclusion. Last edited by author: Sun August 16, 2009 22:19:48   Edited 3 times.

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Hi Murray Author: dori [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 23:41:03 08/17/09 Mon In case you're checking in and wondering why I didn't answer you, please refer to the first thread and Julie's plea to you. Then read Hillbilly's reply to her. I hope you will stick around to add your thoughts. 8-)

[> [> Subject: So true! Author: dori [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 22:40:53 08/10/09 Mon We have compounded their transgressions a hundredfold. 8-(

[> [> Subject: Re: Sin Author: Sandy [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 06:12:07 08/11/09 Tue I just read this morning a praise the Lord testimony on another forum I go to once in a while concerning Mitch, who believed the lie that he was a homosexual for years, the Lord revealing to him the truth about it, and delivering him from it. So please keep him in your prayers if you would, that if the devil does try to tempt him, he will continue to be victorious over it. As that is usually what the devil tries to do. And that he will be able to help others to receive the same deliverance eventually too.

[> [> [> Subject: I will pray for him, Sandy Author: dori [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 16:29:01 08/11/09 Tue That is a very hard thing he has been going through and it will be difficult for him to change lifestyles. I will pray for him to have the strength to continue with this change against all obstacles he will face.

[> Subject: John Bunyan Author: Connie [ Edit | View ] Date Posted: 09:12:09 08/11/09 Tue wrote about being humble in Pilgrim's Progress He that is down need fear no fall; He that is low, no pride; He that is humble, ever shall Have God to be his Guide. I am content with what I have, Little be it or much; And, Lord, contentment still I crave, Because Thou savest such. Fullness to such a burden is, That go on pilgrimage; Here little, and hereafter bliss, Is best from age to age.