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[> [> [> Re: yes, please, serve it up! -- Indri, 18:15:12 06/20/02 Thu


>All this debate has made me even more eager to sample
>the forbidden goods.

No problem. Later tonight.

>(I'm responding here because your
>email address wasn't in this post, and I'm too lazy to
>go get it from the list.)

Yeah, I'm being a bit anal-retentive about the whole Secret Identity and Beware Advertising Your Email Address for Fear of Spam thing. I've been on the Net for years, but only via work connections, so I had to avoid large parts of the Net because our use was sometimes monitored. But now I have cable at home and I am Free! [insane laughter here]

>Give me
>all the other models, and then we'll get some
>graphics-happy person to provide pretty pictures.

What, you want more?

>It'll be a sell out. Every newbie fanfic writer will
>bible-ise it.

Send me email. Once I've sent you T&N, you'll even have my email address in your inbox.

Cheers,
Indri

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[> [> Wieghing In.... -- lanie, 13:54:38 06/19/02 Wed

It's not as if I'm against NC17 fic. I completely dig Herself's Buffy/Spike series and that's plenty NC17 and sometimes a little extreme...

But this fic pushed the boundaries in my opinion and in regards to an accurate portrayal of the characters in season six I had to disagree on some points.

Maybe it was the language or perhaps the characters thoughts that made me think of parts of this as being vulgar-which is quite a word choice to begin with.

It's not that its a bad piece. It isn't. I just had issues with some of it. Again these very well may be my own issues with what I consider good taste, well actually they are.

I'm not canceling it out, saying its horrid, it is not. But I can't clearly say that this was the Buffy and Spike I would have imagined when the cameras weren't rolling.

Again some of the dialogue rocked and the last couple of paragraphs were really quite nice.

I particularly liked the one bit where Spike says something like 'Buffy. I Love you' She ignores him he says it again, 'I. Love. You.' She responds 'I. Heard. You. The. First. Time.' or something like that.

But you asked whether people thought it was an accurate portrayal and I had to say no. That was what I was trying to say and it came out harsher and perhaps more critical then it should have...?

lanie

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[> [> [> Re: Wieghing In.... -- Indri, 18:03:05 06/20/02 Thu

>It's not as if I'm against NC17 fic. I completely dig
>Herself's Buffy/Spike series and that's plenty NC17
>and sometimes a little extreme...

Actually, that's a great example. I'm enjoying reading it ("Mr Grieves" in particular is fabulous), but there are passages that I have to sort of slide my eyes over.

>But this fic pushed the boundaries in my opinion and
>in regards to an accurate portrayal of the characters

That's the sort of thing I wanted to know, and why I was unwilling to formally rec it, as I just can't tell these things from way back here in very-early-season-six land.

>Again these very well may be
>my own issues with what I consider good taste, well
>actually they are.

If a fic's well-written, but I find some of its sex or (more likely) violence too extreme, then I'll still read it but only scan the bits that squick me. One of the reasons why I liked "Tooth and Nail" is that it persuaded me to read well past the point where I normally start scanning. Instead of going "Urgh", I found myself going, "Bloody hell!" But everyone is going to differ on where this point is reached.

Indri

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[> [> [> [> Mr. Grieves...or William -- lanie, 18:21:15 06/20/02 Thu

Totally not on the topic I suppose but what the heck.

I really loved Mr. Grieves and the Fallen Woman. It was such an interesting twist on William and I have to say a terribly honest one for that time. I hadn't really even thought of it like that until I read that fic.

I've liked other stories that have shown us William but I loved this one.

Mr.Grieves was just so...well I dug the story and that is what got me into the series.

I wonder perhaps if there aren't other William fics out there that show such a three dimensional characterization?

Also on the topic of this post...
I think it's fine, you know okay, if pieces don't necessarily give us exactly what the what is on the show. I mean, the gist of fic an all. I'm a W/S shipper, obviously I don't mind going outside the shows boundaries.


lanie

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[> [> [> Re: Weighing In.... -- joan the english chick, 10:41:26 06/21/02 Fri

>It's not as if I'm against NC17 fic. I completely dig
>Herself's Buffy/Spike series and that's plenty NC17
>and sometimes a little extreme...

Ditto.

>But this fic pushed the boundaries in my opinion and
>in regards to an accurate portrayal of the characters
>in season six I had to disagree on some points.
>
>Maybe it was the language or perhaps the characters
>thoughts [snip]
> But I can't clearly say that this was the Buffy
>and Spike I would have imagined when the cameras
>weren't rolling.

I have to agree. The story is reasonably well-written (although it makes some obvious literary mistakes such as having two characters' dialogue in the same paragraph, etc.) and the sex is pretty hot (I'm a fan of NC-17), but the characterization doesn't work for me. The Buffy in this story is a lot more vulgar in her words -- both spoken and thought -- than the Buffy of the show, in my opinion.

I can certainly see Buffy doing most of the things that she does in this story, but not saying and thinking the things that the author has her saying and thinking. Also, there's just a lot more *talking* than I imagine there having really been during the night between "Smashed" and "Wrecked."

I also found a few jarring instances of inconsistency with the whole vampire thing, e.g. Spike's pants cutting off the circulation in his legs (what circulation? he's dead!) and then later, Spike worrying about a wound becoming infected. Little things like that tend to irritate me, because they seem to indicate carelessness on the author's part.

-joan the english chick

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[> [> [> [> Re: Weighing In.... -- Auntie Diluvian, 11:57:42 06/21/02 Fri

You completely beat me to it. I agree with everything you said, on all points, and particularly about Buffy's lines.

>Also, there's just a lot more *talking* than
>I imagine there having really been during the night
>between "Smashed" and "Wrecked."

This is what really struck me. There is such a point made about Buffy trying to get Spike to shut up during the fight in Smashed (immediately previous to the boink-fest) that I can't imagine there being much if *any* dialog between the two of them during that night.

Doesn't mean I didn't enjoy the fic, though.

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[> [> [> Re: Wieghing In.... -- kalima, 10:41:28 06/23/02 Sun


>
>But this fic pushed the boundaries in my opinion and
>in regards to an accurate portrayal of the characters
>in season six I had to disagree on some points.
>
>Maybe it was the language or perhaps the characters
>thoughts that made me think of parts of this as being
>vulgar-which is quite a word choice to begin with.
>
>It's not that its a bad piece. It isn't.
>lanie

I had a mixed reaction to this as well. I thought the sex was hot, and, considering the situation, not out of character. The internal dialog (in fact Spike calling attention to her internal monologue was very funny) didn't seem out of character for me because of Buffy's state of mind (I couldn't imagine her initiating sex with Spike unless she was very messed up and confused and unhappy and really, REALLY angry at life.) What bothered me about this fic was purely technical. Abrupt switching of POV's within the same paragraph. It's a mistake that inexperienced writers often make and was doubly jarring to me because the author showed a lot of skill in other ways.

If anything will make me crazy it's the lack of tight control with point of view shifts.

Also read something recently (and can't remember the title) where I was taken abruptly out of the scene by a reference to the pain of circumcision (Spike) when I feel quite certain this is not something an English lad born in the 1850's would have experienced. The American actor maybe, but...

I know it seems silly, but it completely threw me.

Kalima

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[> [> [> yes, and pigs could fly! ;) -- DeepaD, 09:50:40 06/27/02 Thu


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