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Date Posted: 20:50:12 05/14/05 Sat
Author: all
Subject: responses
In reply to: RitaB/8 's message, "The nature of love. . .Inside" on 20:41:26 05/14/05 Sat

I wondered about the - I just got engaged I thing. I chalk it up to bad writing trying to drag out the moment of suspence a little longer until the official anouncement.. As for the toin coss.. I agree when Mac said 'in London' to harm's lets get married. I thought harm should have answered - or san diego instead of neither of us wants to give up our careers, just one of us has to give up our careers.... the thing is - DPB wanted that moment when they sighed and said - that's the 500 pound gorilla - we would have lost that split second of doubt that they weren't going to go through with it (NT) -- Chris K - after all - DPB had to try and mess with us as much as possible despite the outside pressure not to., 22:57:15 05/07/05 Sat

that should be i THINK - not thinG - although I'm sure he has plenty of thinG - I meant think.. (NT) -- Chris K - up past her bedtime, 22:58:14 05/07/05 Sat

I thought that too. But I think they both were being honest that they didn't want to give up their careers but did want to finally be together. So instead of someone having to offer to give up their career or debating who should do it thus saying one of their careers if more important than the other. They decided to leave it up to fate. That way no resentment based on the decision. I also think after the coin toss they probably talked more about what they would do and maybe tried to get a transfer for the loser to SD or London instead of retiring. I think they just needed to know they were each willing to go through with it, which proved being together was more important than their career. I think the uncertainty in the convo with the bartender was because both were a little unsure. I mean after 9 years of miscommunication both probably had some fear that one of them would change their mind. But once Mac showed up and they went through with the coin toss they both knew it was forever.-- Hope, 23:05:32 05/07/05 Sat

Isn't it also strange that they didn't arrive together??? Perhaps the gave each other time to "think" about the engagement and by both of them arriving separately they had that time to ponder "jumping off the cliff" together... cause that is what the coin toss seemed to be to me! (NT) -- CindyB (let's face it that last scene needed more explanation than we got!), 00:41:07 05/08/05 Sun

well they had to shower and change after their HMS.LOL! If they arrived together we would not have gotten that heated look from Harm or the sexy walk from Mac for the male eyeballs.Or nada kiss from this two. We got no HMS and now some of you want that sweet smokin kiss taken away too? LOLOL! (NT) -- Reese, 01:43:36 05/08/05 Sun

LOL Who said anything about takin the "smokin kiss" away???? I'd like to have seen more kissin and a hugin! But then I'd like to have seen less of Icky Vic and more about Harm and Mac and how they came to McMurphy's separately! (NT) -- CindyB, 10:54:56 05/08/05 Sun

That's exactly how I saw it, Hope. They both were acknowledging that it would be hard to give up a career, yet they wanted to be together enough to be willing to do it. Leaving it to fate with the coin flip meant that neither would have to be a martyr by resigning. (NT) -- Deemus (although I still like the idea of the "loser" asking for a transfer to be near the "winner," but still have a career.), 12:23:08 05/08/05 Sun

I wonder if this isn't DPB's out. You know, how he said that the shippers could say they were together but the non-shippers could think otherwise. Really one can make whatever one wants of the ending. But then, the way the characters have been developed, being honest and honorable (and I want to believe) truly in love with each other, it only stands to reason that they would want to give up something for the other. Maybe we should look at it more from the standpoint of Harm not wanting to deny Mac her opportunity to shine, and vice-versa. That's what they mean when they say they can't decide. Who knows what was said between the 500 lb gorilla and the bar scene?(I think I must be crazy imagining these conversations!) Kind of like "The Gift of the Magi" Does this make sense?-- cherie jagman, 23:23:37 05/07/05 Sat

no - I think what dpb originally planned to do that was ambiguous enough for us to debate was axed by the studios and networks. I think the outcry from the fans via the media etc forced DPB to alter his plan and give us something closer to what we wanted. Studios probably were thinking ahead to dvd sales, networks were thinking about fan loyalty to NCIS or whatever fills JAGs timeslot and the media echoed our opinions loud and clear - after 9 years - we deserve closure (NT) -- Chris K - I don't think marriage or a proposal was his original intention - nothing to debate - even the nonshippers believe now, 23:30:21 05/07/05 Sat

I actually thought this was a very fittting way to handle it. They've worked together for nine years and know what their careers mean to each other-- how they have been defined by them...so Harm stated very plainly and honestly--neither of us wants to give up our career. Now if it had been a life or death situation that would have been different, but by stating the plain unvarnished truth and then both agreeing to let a coin toss decide for them, they were both showing that they were willing to give up their career. That was implied in the agreement. It might have been more romantic the other way- but I think this fit their competitive personalities-(which I think is one of the things they like about each other-- the way they challenge each other), solved the dilema and took guilt and responsibility out of the equation. Besides-- if one had volunteered the other probably would have just argued about that too.(NT)-- manette, 23:39:07 05/07/05 Sat

Excellent explanation Manette. I guess I'm trying to put my mindset about love and sacrifice into their personalities. They did act in character......and besides, it worked out just great!!! THEY'RE TOGETHER!! (NT) -- RitaB/8, 00:55:18 05/08/05 Sun

Yup, IAT w/Manette. They were BOTH willing to let 'fate" make the decision. And yup, they would have argued about it anyway. This way, BOTH careers are given equal importance, since it could be argued until we're blue in the face (okay sorry, this is the HB, we're ALWAYS blue) which one should have 'given up.' There were very good reasons for each one to leave, and for each to stay. I think it was fair, and a heck of a lot more than I thought we'd get from TD. (NT) -- CM>^.,.^<, 10:39:05 05/08/05 Sun

Yes Rita, and that is the important part. Harm said so. He said to Mac to let FATE keep them together forever. So it didn't matter which way the coin fell. They embraced their future...whatever that would be, together. It's more romantic, because it means that they were both willing and HAPPY to accept their future....no matter what. That to me was the greater sacrifice to love...accepting the unknown and the uncertain, for the certainty of love, marriage, and happiness. (NT) -- Cece, 02:13:26 05/08/05 Sun

I find it interesting the line "fate could keep us together." The decision to base who goes where on a coin toss is not leaving things to fate but to choice and chance--choice is one thing, chance another--probably not the best basis on which to start and sustain marriage. Interesting choice of words on Mac's part too--"another woman, *work*... when *work* surely was meant as a reference to Harm's flying--*not* something that is past.(NT)-- JillM, 06:28:59 05/08/05 Sun

When you are talking of "choice and chance" here, you have to look at what the choices are, and what are the chances of it being one thing or another. They made a decision to let the choice by made by chance. There are only two possible outcomes: London and his career, or San Diego and her career. Either way, they are happy to live with it. You could see it this way: Harm doesn't want Mac to sacrifice her career, and Mac doesn't want Harm to. As someone said, it's like in Critical Condition. Neither would allow the other to sacrifice. And Mac's mention of "work" didn't have to mean flying, as that took only a small percentage of Harm's time. It's just as likely to mean "work" as in career (the 500lb gorilla).(NT)---- Cece, 10:09:37 05/08/05 Sun

I disagree JillM and yes Ive tarnished my nonshipper ways but Harm and Mac have never been nsync and truer to each other.Quite a self-sacrificing love story and stuff fairytales are made of.And this is tv not reality so its good to affirm many of our beliefs & virtues that love prevails.Harm and Mac always had it tho tptb tries to shake things up both remain unshakeable. (NT) -- nonshipper, 15:02:37 05/08/05 Sun

With all the high emotions its also normal to get a bit nervous esp this is a big step in their lives. Manette said it best because the outcome was beautiful. What's to analyze when its romantic and unconditional love for them both. Im sure Harm would not want Mac giving up her career likewise Mac not liking Harm to give up his. So they leave it up to fate & their faith to each other too. (NT) -- Reese, 01:37:49 05/08/05 Sun

I think when they agreed to handle the issue by a coin toss. They basically are willing to give up their own career for the other :):)!! (NT) -- Acer, 07:16:58 05/08/05 Sun

In regard to why each was acting unsure about being engaged -- to me it seemed like they were both joking around. I think both were thinking back to the humor in the situation with the "Let's get married" as the proposal instead of the traditional "will you marry me" and there is no ring (YET!) and then a coin toss to decide who gives up their career. The situation was so "Harm and Mac" (not the sappy, staged proposal must people attempt), which is great because it worked for them! (NT) -- Sammy, 17:07:00 05/08/05 Sun

True Sammy and it was not corny sweet or cheesy but in true Harm and Mac fashion and very romantic too. Besides I never saw Harm as the mushy type but when Harm lets go he goes all the way. After the apt.scenes TPTB tried to make is suspenseful re.their marriage but also very lighthearted and playful. (NT) -- nonshipper, 19:58:50 05/08/05 Sun

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