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Date Posted: 03:15:56 05/20/05 Fri
Author: all
Subject: responses
In reply to: Theresa 's message, "Another Finale question. . .Inside" on 02:58:05 05/20/05 Fri

I think it was just bad writing. Of course if you love someone, especially w/ the unconditional love that Harm seems to have for Mac, then there are not "buts". Mac asks Harm "Where? London?" and he says "works for me". But she says "SD works for me." He could have taken her suggestion of London as her sacrificing for him, thus saying "works for me", but then he should have said what you mentioned about "I dont' want you to do that for me". She offered London, he could have offered SD. The way they wrote it made them both look a bit selfish by not wanting to give up. (NT) -- The Chief, 15:10:21 05/18/05 Wed

iI agree, it just wasn't well thought out. But, what could you expect from DB. I'm just happy they will be in my mind together forever somewhere. I don't care where. (NT) -- DAR, 15:12:40 05/18/05 Wed

I dunno.... but my thought on this was that they both had resigned their commissions before (yeah I know AJ didn't process Mac's) and had tried other things. Maybe during that time away they realized how important their military careers were to them. (NT) -- ....just speculating HiG, 15:16:24 05/18/05 Wed

I understand that they know how important their careers are to them, but more important than being with each other? They've both risked their lives for each other, what's a career in comparison to that? It just makes no sense to me. (NT) -- Theresa, 15:27:47 05/18/05 Wed

Warning! Rationalization in progress....... Harm's proposal, while long-simmering, was still very sudden for them. Bam! They're together. They know their careers are the 500lb gorilla, and they're both very rational people (tho Harm tends to react based on his emotions more than she does). So maybe it's an knee-jerk reaction to think protectively of their careers. (NT) -- The Chief, 15:34:29 05/18/05 Wed

I don't think it's that their careers were 'more important' to them than being with each other, but if they were being totally honest they had to admit that they didn't want to give up what they had worked toward for many, many years. It can be frightening to give up that much of yourself and starting over after putting so much time into something. A life and death situation would be totally different IMO because you wouldn't think twice about giving up a career to save someone's life. (NT) -- HiG wondering if I made any sense...., 15:51:46 05/18/05 Wed

Makes sense to me that is what I had posted to but you summed it up much better. (NT) -- Hope, 15:55:39 05/18/05 Wed

Pheww!!! Thanks Hope, sometimes I don't understand me.... lol. I read your post, and I agree... we said pretty much the same thing. (NT) -- HiG, 16:05:26 05/18/05 Wed

well... I think the fine line that the writers 'might' have been trying to unsuccessfully draw.. was - Neither WANTED to give it up... but both were WILLING to do so.. Mac didn't striaght up imply she wanted to give up her career by saying San Diego works for me.... and Harm apparently likes the idea of Captains bars and so he sighed at their impass... the point though, was that regardless, both were willing to make the sacrifice.. Sort of like raising kids.. we do lots of things we don't want to because we love them.. Lord knows why, but we do. (NT) -- Chris K - who REALLY doesn't want to work today...., 15:19:13 05/18/05 Wed

Speaking about kids...IMO Mac is more willing than Harm to give up her careers just because,as a woman, if she really wants start a family, ( and we know she WANTS) she will be necessarily more involved in it than harm. So, I like to think that, if she wins at the coin toss, eventually she will decide to follow Harm in London. (NT) -- f.l., 18:50:17 05/18/05 Wed

We all know Fairwinds while beautiful was really botched up and rushed. But let's not go there.LOL! In the apt.scene there was still fear and uncertainty and sadness not knowing if they will be together. But after the kiss,love declarations,the lovinnn fireworks led to McMurphys they're aweken from their highs that its more official,its really happening,they know what they want and are in the same page so we see them both letting go.They're happy and in each other's arms where they belong. (NT) -- Reese, 15:21:23 05/18/05 Wed

I think they were just being honest that they loved their careers and didn't want to give them up. When Harm gave it up it was a life or death situation very different then here. That didn't mean it was more important than being with each other just that it was important. I think it would have been unrealistic for them to just pretend their careers aren't important to them. I think they also realized didn't want to be separated so they needed to figure out how to do that. If one of them passed on their promotion and looked for a billet near the other they could have wound up in a less desirable position that would have lead to resentment of what they gave up and resentment of how successful the other was. So by having one of the resign that person could look for something in the private sector that appealed to them and would remove that possibility of resentment. The coin toss took away having to say one of their careers was more important than the other.(NT)-- Hope, 15:27:59 05/18/05 Wed

I get why they had the coin toss, I agree, they didn't want any resentment on either side. But I can see much more them both saying, "I don't want you to have to give up your career." Than to say, "I don't want to give up my career for you." They both know how important their careers are to themselves. They wouldn't want the other to give up something so important to them. (NT) -- Theresa, 15:31:01 05/18/05 Wed

I thought it was just an acknowledgement of how important the military was to both of them and under other circumstances giving up that career would not be something that either would choose to do- but if they left it to fate-- then the only choice they were making was to be together and letting a toss of the coin decide how that would be played out. (NT) -- manette, 15:31:55 05/18/05 Wed

I think, Theresa, that we just have to accept the finale the way it is. Mac never actually said anything about giving up HER career, she only said, "...one of us has to give up their NAVY careers." I took it to mean Mac was willing for Harm to give up his job, again. Whether that is what DPB meant or not, that is what she said. If we start to analyze this episode too closely, it will ruin some of the fun of the last scenes. (NT) -- NanaSue, 15:46:06 05/18/05 Wed

The Marines are part of the Navy. Midshipmen at USNA can choose Marine options. She was not speaking of just Harm, but the both of them. (NT) -- The Chief, 15:53:41 05/18/05 Wed

...But in all the years she's been on the show, she has never referred to herself as being in the navy. Like I said, trying not to look too closely at analyzing this episode. (NT) -- NS, 15:59:22 05/18/05 Wed

There's that pesky writing again! They could have cut out "Navy" and left it at "our careers". (NT) -- The Chief, 16:06:11 05/18/05 Wed

So there's nothing wrong with that. My cousin who is a Marine always says he works for the U.S.Navy. Its also very telling and meaningful and not meant to be taken seriously. She's going to be Mrs.Navy anyway and Cresswell told Harm he's finally on the side of the Marines.ROTFLOL! (NT) -- Lois, 16:07:10 05/18/05 Wed

I think it was more to save time than anything else. I mean they were already down to the wire. I mean the whole conversation felt a little like shorthand to me. I also think they had to discuss it more before the bar since they had to talk about the coin toss and call Bud and Harriet, so they could have both offered to resign then but neither was willing to accept the other resigning. (NT) -- Hope, 16:10:04 05/18/05 Wed

The more common terminology would have been "military" career, but there is nothing wrong with the way they stated it. The Marines are still considered to be "attached" to the Navy. I seriously doubt we were supposed to think that was Mac proposing that Harm give up his career, and that she was unwilling to give up hers. (NT) -- CM>^.,.^<, 17:27:51 05/18/05 Wed

My take on it is that, IF JAG had continued for another year, DPB would NOT have put H&M together. I think the entire show up until the final 8 minutes leads to that. Harm and Mac packing up their lives/memories separately and not talking about anything important. The remark by Mac about "Navy careers" is just another example of something that got overlooked in the final phase of the episode. (NT) -- NS, 18:34:56 05/18/05 Wed

You're right NS, Mac didn't say she'd give it up either. That also didn't make sense to me. The ending was awesome, it's just those few lines that didn't mesh with the rest. It's not a Harm vs Mac kind of thing. Neither of them voiced their willingness to sacrifice anything to stay together. That seemed out of character to me, because they had done it before. It's a continuity thing. (NT) -- Theresa, 16:05:03 05/18/05 Wed

by agreeing to the coin toss they are voicing their agreement to give it up-- why do we have to see the 'I'll give it up--no..I'll give it up' dance for it to be a romantic and loving gesture? They made one mutual choice, one mutual decision and that was to be together. I thought the way they handled it was very Harm and Mac and showed how well they knew each other. (NT) -- manette, 16:11:00 05/18/05 Wed

I agree, Manette, the coin toss did show their mutual agreement to give it up. All I'm saying is that if they are going to have a conversation about giving up careers. Given their previous willingness to give up important things for each other in the past, it would have been more realistic to have them say that they'd each be willing to do so, instead of saying that they don't want to. They could still have the same conversation about the 500 lb. gorilla in the room. (NT) -- Theresa, 16:17:17 05/18/05 Wed

The other times they gave up something weren�t they more life and death situations. The one time Mac quit for �love� it turned out bad. When she went to Russia with Harm she wasn�t risking her career as much as her life. Same when they stayed behind for Bud it was a life and death situation and I think they knew the Admiral wouldn�t have kicked them out for it. When Harm went after her in Paraguay was still a life or death situation and I still think he was surprised the Admiral didn�t take him back. This really was the first time they talked about being together and what they would have to give up to make it work. So they knew they had to be honest and that meant admitting their careers were important to them but by agreeing to the coin toss showed not more important than being together.(NT)-- Hope, 16:33:13 05/18/05 Wed

Leaving the military had not been a good experience for either- so I think it was very realistic to acknowledge the neither wanted to do that. I think being honest about that was a more mature way to approach it- and it didn't diminish anything or make it less realistic to me- in fact it emphasized the sacrifice they were both willing to make with the coin toss.Both saying we will do what it takes to be together..what more could you want? (NT) -- manette, 16:33:14 05/18/05 Wed

it's what I said above... neither Wanted to leave but both were Willing to leave... If they had to choose between their careers or eachother - each other won... (NT) -- Chris K - hence - the toin coss, 16:54:24 05/18/05 Wed

Exactly. I really can't see either of them volunteering to resign until they are positive that the other one wants to get married, too. Remember, from what we saw on the show, Mac had been pushing Harm away for a year. She hadn't really opened up much to him, and he had been spending all his time worrying about Mattie and closing her off lately. So I think it's normal that they didn't jump right in there with "I'll quit." (NT) -- Ann, 20:27:27 05/18/05 Wed

I wonder if partly why they didn�t have them say I will resign was then we wouldn�t get the 500lb gorilla line which was suppose to explain why they hadn�t gotten together in the last 9 years. The writers might not have been able to figure out how to work in that line if they had let them both volunteer to resign. (NT) -- Hope, 16:13:59 05/18/05 Wed

you mean all this time and I never noticed the only reason they didn't get together sooner was the damn Gorilla!!!! Where's the game warden??? (NT) -- Chris K - it's been a REALLY long day, 18:31:45 05/18/05 Wed

Yeah and his name is Don. (NT) -- Hope, 19:17:07 05/18/05 Wed

ROTFLOL! (NT) -- JAG Junkie, 22:32:54 05/18/05 Wed

The poachers killed him in Full Engagement. (NT) -- Ann, 07:11:55 05/19/05 Thu

Im going with the fairytale ending too because being overanalysts will ruin the ep. Let's enjoy how offliner fans do. They're in love,they're together, reality bites its no easy saying giving up their careers but they did. Also DB is not into the sappy mushy all out romance so let's be thankful because it could have been worst. Im going to avoid too much ep.dissections because Im gonna lose my love for Jag esp the finale. (NT) -- Lois, 15:56:12 05/18/05 Wed

Well then read carefully around here, Lois. One of the HB's nicknames is "Dissections 'R' Us"! (NT) -- The Chief - the more I peek beneath the surface of Harm, the more I love him!, 16:08:42 05/18/05 Wed

I don't think it's that unrealistic at all. Both of them had previously left the military and disliked it. I think it definitely stands to reason that both would be hesitant to leave again, especially with so many years toward retirement. (NT) -- Kate, 15:59:22 05/18/05 Wed

They were both willing to give up their careers for each other and allow fate to decide where they would go on Mac's call of the coin. It was just written poorly when they were talking about it or maybe it was just DB's way of putting off the inevitable just a little bit longer, another bump in the road. Once Mac showed up at McMurphy's we knew they'd sealed the deal and were getting married. They'd already told Bud and Harriet and were extremely happy. (NT) -- BlueJay, 16:23:01 05/18/05 Wed

The best viewing for the finale is to compare the sad faces of Harm and Mac in the conference room fast forward to McMurphys with their glowing confident playful faces. Follow the offline fans with all their united partying. We're still busy with our swooning and Wooohooos.LOL! (NT) -- Paris, 16:25:46 05/18/05 Wed

Amen to that Paris, and I agree completely. We had a ball watching the finale, and a lot of us are still reeling over it. I'm not saying I don't like the finale, or that it still doesn't blow my hair back everytime I even think about it, let alone actually view it. I'm just pointing out a few lines that didn't seem realistic given what my view of Harm and Mac is. The rest of it, beyond those lines, just gives me goose bumps! (NT) -- Theresa, 16:34:11 05/18/05 Wed

I see what you're saying, Theresa, but I agree with Hope and HiG. This showed the complete honesty they are going to have in their relationship. Though they didn't want to be seperated, both were happy about the new responsibilities. That was a given. The fact that both sincerely wanted their new position, but were willing to give it up if that's what fate decided speaks to their love for one another more than any long conversation that would have ended up in a stalemate anyway, could. (NT) -- Carrotts, 16:35:59 05/18/05 Wed

I think the career issue was central to why Harm and Mac had never gotten together in the first place. Considering their personalities, The coin toss was a great idea. Anything else might have led to resentment down the road. However, I do think Mac had already made her decision. I thought here were clues throughout the episode that hinted at the fact that Mac might be ready for a change. There was nothing that would lead one to think that Harm was contemplating one. "Psychic Mac" made the call, and despite what I have read on this board...tails loses slightly more than heads.(NT)-- psych9, 16:38:19 05/18/05 Wed

Indeedio Theresa....Im gonna cheat and do the short cut so Manette...Hope...HiG...Carrotts and the others said it best. Im even getting choked up because their careers is one of their loves too in their lifetime so arent you proud of them for their leap of faith and its them 1st...the rest dont matter.......typical TPTB wanted the angst for suspense and buildup little they know fans are screaming shut up everytime VicIck is there.....fans looking at their clocks with reactions " 9 years waiting and we get 7 1/2 of scraps!!!!!". Time was the enemy of fans that night.LOL! The the desperate fandom didnt care for the suspense and rarely we are surprise.....all we want is they're happy together. The only injustice is the H&M doggie bone.(NT)-- Paris..gotta go, 16:47:12 05/18/05 Wed

Yes Paris, I'm very proud of them for their leap of faith. I think the dialog could have been slightly different, and we could have had the same result. Either way, no matter the road they took, they ended up together and happy. That is truly enough for me, but it's not going to stop me from seeing something that I think is a slight error and talking about it. (NT) -- Theresa, 16:52:29 05/18/05 Wed

LOLOLOL Paris and you captured the household reaction of Jag fanatics that night. So very true. (NT) -- Lois, 16:53:57 05/18/05 Wed

I agree, Paris. I think this was just another example of DPB's stinginess toward the shippers. He either decided he had to acquiesce, or he was forced to do it by Paramount and/or CBS, But I don't think he really wanted to do the H/M togetherness, and if he was going to do it, then it was going to be the least little bit he could spare. Many fans, even other shippers, were not happy with the episode, but they were relieved that at least H&M were together. (NT) -- NanaSue, 18:42:28 05/18/05 Wed

Believe me, the alternate endings had WAY less togetherness than the one we saw. They were kissing and nuzzling and touching and proposing, and promising forever. There's not a whole lot more togetherness they can show on screen without the removal of clothing. The least little bit he could spare, was WAY less than what we saw. He's an ass, don't get me wrong, but he could have given us A LOT less. (NT) -- Theresa, 18:45:53 05/18/05 Wed

Well, Theresa, there was a LOT that could have been done before the last 8 minutes. Why couldn't H&M have spent some time together? Who in the military does their own packing anyhoo? I agree, what we got was nice. What led up to it could have been - a lot - better. (NT) -- NS, 18:51:06 05/18/05 Wed

I won't disagree with that, it always could have been better. (NT) -- Theresa, 19:10:52 05/18/05 Wed

Ba-rooooooo!!! happy to have been given that much of a bone.... Why not do the whole episode of H/m??? Better yet why not do the last 2 years with H/M getting together...??? Heck yeah it could have been better..... (NT) -- Abby Normal......( wondering if cbs/paramount made DB put them together...LOLOL), 23:56:29 05/18/05 Wed

While I understand everyone's reasoning, I am going to have to agree with Theresa. I am very grateful and extremely happy over the ending, but those lines of dialogue DID bother me a little. Theresa, I like your dialogue ideas better than what we got LOL! In fact, when I watch the finale and I get to that part, I imagine them saying something much like what you suggested instead! I think it would fit better with the characters and their situation. But hey, I am just thankful we got what we did. Think of how bad it could have been!(NT)-- JAG Junkie, 17:07:40 05/18/05 Wed

I have to admit, I'm surprised that no one here seems to have ever been in that position. I have. Years ago, my husband was offered a transfer that would have required my giving up my career. I had already changed careers for his career several years before. You better believe we had the discussion of, "I don't want to give up my career, and you don't either" for the second time. I don't find the way they said it abnormal at all. (NT) -- Ann, 20:41:22 05/18/05 Wed

I agree with everyone that the dialogue bothered me with neither "wanting" to give up their career.But I figured that between the scene at the apartment and when they show up at McMurphhy's they have had more discussion and are willing to do whatever needs to be done to stay together.I also think there was a little subtext to Harm wanting Creswell there-maybe to give them another option?As well as Mac telling Harriet how she wishes sometimes that she had her life.(NT)-- Nina, 18:28:25 05/18/05 Wed

Ok after thinking about this all afternoon. Came up with some other reasons. I wonder if before the crap in Paraguay and the hell of the last two years they would have been more ready to give up their careers. For the last two years pretty much all either has had is their career. Earlier on before Paraguay they were both happier and seemed like they had more in their lives and also I think still believed they would one day have a family hopefully together. But after Paraguay Harm lost his career and was distanced from his friends. He found Mattie and that helped but still didn�t really have a purpose till he was back in the Navy. Then Mattie left and all he had left was his career. After Mattie had the accident and her father disappeared he became responsible for her again so would be important to have a job when going for custody. For Mac after Paraguay she had her career but the rest of her life was so messed up. She was involved in a dysfunctional relationship with Webb, stalked by Sadiq which resulted in her having to kill him and estranged from her best friend. Then she thinks Webb is dead and at the same time finds out she has endrometritis. So for the last two years the only constant and stable thing in her life had been her career. I think both probably started to feel they would never marry or have a family. Thus all they had were their careers making them more important in their life than they had in the past. Finally getting together was very unexpected and as much as they both wanted it to work had to feel slightly apprehensive that after 9 years could they really make it work. They had both just been given very important new billets. All of this could have made them cautious to just jump head first and say I�ll give up my career. Now after time talking and making love and becoming more secure in this new turn in their relationship I can see them saying to the other I will resign. But not wanting the other to give up their career they decide on the coin toss.(NT)-- Hope - hoping this makes some sense, 19:14:29 05/18/05 Wed

Exactly. (NT) -- Ann, 20:42:31 05/18/05 Wed

OK Hope, you just summed up the missing scene in your last two sentences. Maybe it is time for *me* to challenge *you* to write a fanfic with your ideas! LOL! (NT) -- JAG Junkie--still working on my own fanfic ideas, 21:01:33 05/18/05 Wed

Ok, here's my opinion and I haven't read everyone elses. But both their tune changed after they had HMS!!!! DUH!!! Once they got into the sack, they knew this was a keeper no matter what it took. LOL (NT) -- judi thinking a night in the sack with Harm would be something I couldn't let go of, 23:07:47 05/18/05 Wed

Okay, my two cents worth. First of all, Mac seemed to "resent" the fact that Harm had gotten a promotion to Captan. "What, your elevation to greatness" she states in her office. Of course, Harm is happy, and she does not congratulate him. Another major thing was that she never told Harm "I love you," like Harm did. I know her words and actions may have expressed her love, but for years we have been waiting for him to tell her those three words. He did. As for sacrificing their careers.Maybe I'm all wrong here, but since Harm had gotten a promotion, and a very important one, and as Chris K. pointed out, Mac wants to try to have a baby, it would have played out a lot nice if she had capitulated and said, "I love you for willing to give up your promotion, but I love you enough to give up my new post. Besides, this way we can try to have our baby. After nine years, I don't want to risk losing you again." (Fill in the rest.) If DPB hadn't insisted on having Yuckyvic take up most of the ep's time, we might have had a better solution than several kisses, a proposal, several more kisses, the realization that Harm didn't want to give up his Navy Career (and here I have to say that I don't blame him, and Mac didn't want to give up her career either. His promotion was a big one that would prepare him to take over as the new JAG in a few years.) Then Harm comes up with "do you believe in fate." I don't know, it just didn't make sense to me either, although I loved the last seven minutes of the show. Isn't it pathetic that we waited nine years to see Harm and Mac together, and get seven minutes, (take away at least three and a half for the scene at McMurphy's and we got about three minutes of what we had waited over nine years to see. One thing came of this for me. I will NEVER watch a DPB series again. Someone mentioned about Mac willing to give up her career (for Dalton Lowne and "spreading her wings), yet she's not willing to give up her career for finally being with the one man she loves. The same goes for Harm, but I still say that Harm's situation was different in that he got not only a huge promotion, but a very pretigious job. I don't know, I just wish there had been a way that they could both keep their jobs, and work in the same place, but not in the same chain of command. (NT)-- Henri, 23:22:45 05/18/05 Wed

The biggest proof is both of their self-sacrifice. Giving up one's beloved career is easier said than done and for that I give props to H-M. Either way London and SD works. Mac envied Harriet's life and for the past seasons we really see the family guy in Harm. Im very surprised DB gave in to the shippers and we got our happy ending but its my last DB show too.This guy knows nothing about real emotional payoff. (NT) -- muffin, 23:29:32 05/18/05 Wed

I don�t think Mac resented him. I think she was upset and trying to cover that up. Her look and his after they found out they would be so far apart was not one of happiness. Mac tends to use sarcasm to cover her true feelings. I do that too. Her tone was not one of malice. (NT) -- Hope, 23:39:19 05/18/05 Wed

True Hope Mac is always good in her Marine mode and she's even that way when Chloe was missing and AJ told her its ok to let her emotions show. Remember folks Mac is being penned by clueless men and sometimes stereotypical of the military women.Even Navy Marine stereotypes are so evident on Jag.LOL! (NT) -- muffin, 23:55:14 05/18/05 Wed

I agree Hope, and Harm took it well. He didn't have hurt feelings, or get swayed from the subject by her comment. Besides, she's the one who came to him to bring up the subject, and she proposed first, without the mention of his rank or their careers. She wanted to marry him, the man, the careers and the ranks, and the fact that the door was open, was all just scenery. (NT) -- Theresa, 23:56:36 05/18/05 Wed

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