Re: Pan's Labyrinth -- The Movie Board

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Subject: Re: Pan's Labyrinth

Author:
Kylopod

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Date Posted: 12:24:56 10/06/07 Sat
Author Host/IP: pool-71-246-76-93.bltmmd.east.verizon.net/71.246.76.93
In reply to: Mr. Bungle 's message, "Re: Pan's Labyrinth" on 14:51:03 10/03/07 Wed

>>But there's nothing morally ambiguous about most of
>>the Captain's actions. Just because there is gray in
>>the world doesn't mean everything's gray.
>
> I don't think there is a moral ambiguity to his
>actions (and if he seemed to enjoy them, I guess it
>becomes a matter of degree, was it a twisted
>perversion, or was he just happy to be getting the job
>done?), or in most violence deemed necessary in war. I
>imagine killing to defend oneself would carry with it
>little satisfaction for someone like me or you. We've
>never done it. But when killing is your job? That's a
>huge gray area. What if you're good at it? What if
>you've become desensitized? El Capitan is only seen in
>terms of his job in that film, and there's not enough
>background on him to know if he would have ever
>killed anyone if he wasn't in the military.

By the same token, Hitler might not have killed a soul if he'd been accepted to the art academy. But that doesn't take away his culpability.

>>>>>He's convinced he's right.
>>>>
>>>>So was Hitler.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Hitler was also investigating somewhat supernatural
>>>methods while waging the war, was he not?
>>
>>He was?
>
> Didn't you ever see Raiders? OK, I'm kidding.
>Most of the stuff about Nazi occultism suffers from a
>severe case of the bullshit, but the fact is the
>swastika has different meanings across many religions
>which makes it at least mystical.

I thought you meant he actually tried using supernatural methods against his enemies, like chanting curses or something. Merely having religious or occult beliefs is a different matter.

>>That isn't clear. His speech about lack of equality
>>seems to hint at Nazi ideology, and his nationalism
>>was mixed with Catholicism. But really, what does it
>>matter whether something's done in the name of
>>religion or not?
>
> Sure. How much death do you figure organized
>religion is responsible for?

It's hardly self-evident that organized religion is the root cause, as opposed to an excuse.

>Wouldn't
>anyone who hates violence advocate the eradication of
>organized religion?

Only if you live in the nineteenth century. After seeing what happened with Communist ideology, I would think any clear thinker would be very careful before assuming that eradicating organized religion (assuming that's even possible) will lead to a more peaceful world.

>>I don't see the comparison. Bush's actions in Iraq
>>have at least allegedly a noble cause. There was
>>nothing noble about the Nazi project even in theory.
>
> You misunderstood, I was referring to El Capitan
>when speaking of the "daddy issues" between him and
>Bush. Comparing Bush to Hitler only concerns their
>religious ideology and the fact that they were in
>positions of extreme power (grabbed up in remarkably
>the same way) when they got around to changing the
>world as drastically as they did. I don't think the
>cause of this war is "noble", but it's certainly not
>comparable to Hitler in WWII. There are religious
>elements to reshaping the Middle East in a lot of
>peoples minds (read: Evangelicals), but it's not the
>primary rationale (protecting Israel is sort of tied
>into that as far as Christian Zionists are concerned).
>The primary one is business. Money. And certainly oil.

While I don't disagree, I was talking about how the war was sold. (That's why I stuck in the word "allegedly.") There were a number of motives, and I don't think Bush's was exactly the same as the neo-cons who backed him.

You might retort that the Hitler had allegedly "noble" arguments too, such as rebuilding Germany, but there was an overtly racist element from the beginning. You can't say that about the Iraq war.

>>Like it or not, there is a qualitative difference
>>between a misguided war and a program of genocide.
>
> We couldn't be more in agreement, but is killing a
>million people (I'm sure at least that many will die
>in this war before it's done) through sheer hubris and
>incompetence really any less deplorable then when it's
>on purpose? I'm sure the dead would equally vote for,
>"It sucks getting killed by assholes."

As far as consequences go, no. But if we're talking about defining evil, motives and intentions are relevant.

>>> I was thinking that the possibility of her being
>>>mentally ill was the third, though I suppose you
>could
>>>lump mental instability and psychic premonition
>>>together.
>>
>>That's not what I meant. Let's say I'm not sure what
>>your second possibility is, assuming you mean that the
>>first is that it's all real. Are you perhaps making a
>>distinction between mental illness and ordinary
>>play-acting?
>
> I think that's where I lost you, yes.

Then what did you mean? What were your four possibilities? Lay them out for me, even if you think you're repeating yourself.

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Replies:

Subject	Author	Date
Re: Pan's Labyrinth	Mr. Bungle	17:09:37 10/10/07 Wed
Re: Pan's Labyrinth -- Kylopod, 01:26:10 10/11/07 Thu