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| Subject: Re: Pan's Labyrinth | |
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Author: Mr. Bungle |
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Date Posted: 14:51:03 10/03/07 Wed Author Host/IP: ip70-189-79-252.ok.ok.cox.net/70.189.79.252 In reply to: Kylopod 's message, "Re: Pan's Labyrinth" on 05:20:44 10/03/07 Wed >But there's nothing morally ambiguous about most of >the Captain's actions. Just because there is gray in >the world doesn't mean everything's gray. I don't think there is a moral ambiguity to his actions (and if he seemed to enjoy them, I guess it becomes a matter of degree, was it a twisted perversion, or was he just happy to be getting the job done?), or in most violence deemed necessary in war. I imagine killing to defend oneself would carry with it little satisfaction for someone like me or you. We've never done it. But when killing is your job? That's a huge gray area. What if you're good at it? What if you've become desensitized? El Capitan is only seen in terms of his job in that film, and there's not enough background on him to know if he would have ever killed anyone if he wasn't in the military. Regardless the guy was still a total asshole. >>Like I said, evil (to me at least) has somewhat of a >>supernatural connotation. > >Not necessarily. But you can't rule it out as a rationale either. >>>>He's convinced he's right. >>> >>>So was Hitler. >>> >> >>Hitler was also investigating somewhat supernatural >>methods while waging the war, was he not? > >He was? Didn't you ever see Raiders? OK, I'm kidding. Most of the stuff about Nazi occultism suffers from a severe case of the bullshit, but the fact is the swastika has different meanings across many religions which makes it at least mystical. >That isn't clear. His speech about lack of equality >seems to hint at Nazi ideology, and his nationalism >was mixed with Catholicism. But really, what does it >matter whether something's done in the name of >religion or not? Sure. How much death do you figure organized religion is responsible for? Just in wars, even? I won't even count the random shit that fanatics just do for fun. People look for reasons that murder happens and in a civil society we lock up murderers, or study them for clues about their aberrant psychology so we can spot mother fuckers like them early on and try to prevent it. They're looking for the motive, because they want to eradicate it and thus murder. Wouldn't anyone who hates violence advocate the eradication of organized religion? >>>>I think this makes him more unnerving and >>>>dangerous, because evil has supernatural >connotations >>> >>>It does? >>> >> The way guys like Bush or Hitler see it, their view >>of evil is based on a Christian perspective, and isn't >>it a big red dude with horns that's the source of all >>evil? Didn't they think they were getting their orders >>from the All Mighty? Actually, another comparison >>between Bush and El Capitan is both of their >>inferiority complexes concerning their fathers, though >>that has nothing to do with the supernatural (or not) >>nature of evil. > >I don't see the comparison. Bush's actions in Iraq >have at least allegedly a noble cause. There was >nothing noble about the Nazi project even in theory. You misunderstood, I was referring to El Capitan when speaking of the "daddy issues" between him and Bush. Comparing Bush to Hitler only concerns their religious ideology and the fact that they were in positions of extreme power (grabbed up in remarkably the same way) when they got around to changing the world as drastically as they did. I don't think the cause of this war is "noble", but it's certainly not comparable to Hitler in WWII. There are religious elements to reshaping the Middle East in a lot of peoples minds (read: Evangelicals), but it's not the primary rationale (protecting Israel is sort of tied into that as far as Christian Zionists are concerned). The primary one is business. Money. And certainly oil. But these neo-con assholes were just blindingly stupid and a simple little thing like taking Iraq, Iran, and Syria, breaking them up and spreading them on Chia Pets to sprout some of that ready made "democracy" while the managers of it get rich as fuck...I think it just got away from them. Because they are very shortsighted, insular, prone to groupthink, and flat out fucking dumb. >Like it or not, there is a qualitative difference >between a misguided war and a program of genocide. We couldn't be more in agreement, but is killing a million people (I'm sure at least that many will die in this war before it's done) through sheer hubris and incompetence really any less deplorable then when it's on purpose? I'm sure the dead would equally vote for, "It sucks getting killed by assholes." But this is straying far from Pan's Labyrinth. >> I was thinking that the possibility of her being >>mentally ill was the third, though I suppose you could >>lump mental instability and psychic premonition >>together. > >That's not what I meant. Let's say I'm not sure what >your second possibility is, assuming you mean that the >first is that it's all real. Are you perhaps making a >distinction between mental illness and ordinary >play-acting? I think that's where I lost you, yes. And perhaps that's a distinction I should not have made. We are talking about a kid, after all. I don't know about you but I felt like I was more or less tripping acid till I turned 10 or 11. I had no frame of reference for that feeling till I was about 16, but that's what it was like when I was a kid. It's like Mr. Bean. If you saw a little kid doing Mr. Bean shit it would be cute. The fact that Bean is a character played by the adult Rowan Atkinson is still cute because it's Atkinson, and hey, it's still fictional. But how would you react to someone who really acted like Bean does? If it was a kid, you'd think it was funny. If it was an adult, you'd probably start backing away... Then I just re-read below and realized you make this point much better then I just tried to. When it comes to movies, that sort of >distinction is a fine line. I was recently watching >the old Henry Thomas flick "Cloak & Dagger," which I >had last seen when I was younger than Thomas's >character. It isn't anywhere near as complex a film as >"Pan's Labyrinth," and there's never any question that >the child's visions are a product of his imagination. >But he could just as easily be pretending as >hallucinating. I haven't seen Cloak and Dagger in fer-fuckin'-ever. >Keep in mind that the role in "Pan" was written for an >eight-year-old girl. Younger kids naturally have a >harder time distinguishing fantasy from reality. For >an eleven-year-old, we'd be more willing to suspect >psychological problems. It's just hard to find younger >kids who can act. So, these types of movies usually >end up resembling mental illness, even if that >interpretation isn't necessary. I hadn't considered the availability of good child actors, and if I did I'd probably start stalking them. Just kidding. Not really. >The girl's final vision is quite clearly (to my eyes) >a near-death experience. But the earlier visions could >be any number of things--dreams, hallucinations, or >just play-acting. Even if she was going mad, it could >have been gradual. There's no way for us to be >certain, because the cinematic techniques for >depicting all these levels of unreality tend to blend >together. Which are those beautiful threads that lead to one's own interpretation. It's hard to say how excited I am about Del Toro. Anyone that can get sober tears out of my withered soul (the end did me in) for the sheer beauty of a story they came up with will have my undivided attention in any genre for as long as I can see. The guy has legend written all over him. Mr. B [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] |
| Subject | Author | Date |
| Re: Pan's Labyrinth | Kylopod | 12:24:56 10/06/07 Sat |
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