VoyForums
[ Show ]
Support VoyForums
[ Shrink ]
VoyForums Announcement: Programming and providing support for this service has been a labor of love since 1997. We are one of the few services online who values our users' privacy, and have never sold your information. We have even fought hard to defend your privacy in legal cases; however, we've done it with almost no financial support -- paying out of pocket to continue providing the service. Due to the issues imposed on us by advertisers, we also stopped hosting most ads on the forums many years ago. We hope you appreciate our efforts.

Show your support by donating any amount. (Note: We are still technically a for-profit company, so your contribution is not tax-deductible.) PayPal Acct: Feedback:

Donate to VoyForums (PayPal):

[ Login ] [ Contact Forum Admin ] [ Main index ] [ Post a new message ] [ Search | Check update time | Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, [10] ]

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Date Posted: 13:58:16 05/06/09 Wed
Author: JB
Subject: Re: Akiva and the Really cold hard facts
In reply to: Julie B 's message, "Akiva and the cold hard facts" on 19:59:19 05/05/09 Tue

Thank you for your post Julie. This is the first time I have heard this story. I find it difficult to understand why they would post their problems on the Yellow Board at 4 months and not call the breeder first. I did not see that post and cannot go back that far in the archives. I am able to go back to Acrhive number 7 and read the thread posted by Ed and Jessica bragging about Akiva and Jessica working together. Anyone interested can find it. There was not a hint of any problems. In fact, you posted :

“Great dog. Dedicated handler!
These girls are the kind of students every teacher wants. They both really love to work and strive to do the best job possible.
They're really coming together as a team. I can't wait to see what they look like in a couple of weeks.
Keep up the good work and thanks so much for the kind words.”
Akiva would have been about 18 months old at this time.

I had spoken to Ed a couple of times prior to this about his imminent move to Austin. Never a hint of any problem with Akiva.

I want to say this at this point. I always thought Ed and Jessica were great people and still feel that about Jessica, and I DO understand the heartbreak that comes with putting a loved pet down. They only got brought into this public forum because ED went on another thread that was busy trying to bash me, and talked about their sorrow over the Akiva situation. This was a shock to me and the first I had heard of ANY problem with their dog. The finger was pointed at be for breeding unstable dogs.
(I might want to point out that there is a difference in producing an unstable pup and breeding unstable dogs)
I emailed Ed asking for details and he replied

“Yes, unfortunately so! We decided to euthanize her because her aggressive behavior deteriorated and she became a liability. The proverbial straw that broke the camel's back was her attacking a non-threatening stranger. The damage from that one bite was substantial as you know it could be with a dog as strong as a Boerboels are. It was a toughest decision to make and Jessica is still hurting. But it had to be done.”.

I wasn’t there and wasn’t privy to ANY background information, but I knew that none of Akiva’s siblings had any temperament problems and I also know how easy it is for someone to screw-up a developing puppy. It is also possible that a pup just has its’ own problems that are not anyone’s fault. But I responded to Ed pointing out

“Hi Ed,
I am sorry to hear about Akiva and sorrier yet that the first I knew of the situation was what I read on the message board. What you posted--on a thread where someone is trying to suggest that I have deceptive sales tactics and a poor breeding program (none of which is true)--makes it look like I sold you a pup with a poor temperament.
If you remember my response when you first asked me about protection training I said that I had never trained, or tried to train, any of my dogs in protection BECAUSE I had no experience in that field and I was afraid that I could take a dog that would protect me if the need ever arose and teach him to bite when I wanted, even if he saw no threat. I said that I was afraid that less than professional training could create a dog that might misinterpret me, my actions, or the situation, and think I wanted him to bite even though he would normally see no need. I said that I didn't want to encourage unnecessary aggression in one of my dogs. We do not know if this is what happened with Akiva, but we don't know it is not the base cause. Your post makes it look as if the problem was caused by a dog I bred and sold that had weak nerves. This is also possible, but none of her relatives up her line or her extended family including aunts, uncles, or cousins have demonstrated tendencies to bite without cause. Just perhaps her actions were not the result of poor breeding.
John”

Well, the following was his reply (in part)

“I resent the fact that you are implying that our actions were the direct cause of Akiva's issues. I am absolutely positive that what we did or did not do with Akiva could not have been a base cause for such drastic aggression issues. She could not make good decisions as a stable nerved dog would do. She was unpredictable and unreliable. Yes, I am telling you that you sold me a nerve-bag. You convinced my daughter and I that you had amazing dogs with great temperaments and we were naive enough to believe you. Have you taken Angel and Tommy (or any of your other dogs, for that matter) out into public, into stressful situations? No! Have you tested their ability to handle stress healthily without snapping under the pressure? No! Your motto is that these dogs are "rural dogs and don't need to go out into public". (I have never said anything like that and none of the readers on this board have ever heard me say anything like it.)
He continued “Akiva was on the sleeve twice in her lifetime. We spent 2 1/2 years socializing her and working competition obedience. Those 2 times on the sleeve could not turn her into an aggressive and unpredictable dog. Her defense drive was way out of wack, and the decoy was scared to work her, even though this was her first time ever seeing a sleeve! Now, can you honestly say that a dog that reacts immediately with defense to a man with a sleeve, not even acting threatening yet, has a stable temperament? I may not be a professional trainer, but I've worked enough dogs in obedience and protection to know that the latter is not true.”

I clearly said in my email that I wasn’t saying that their actions were the direct cause of Akiva’s problems (I wasn’t there to watch this saga unfold). But I wasn’t going to sit by and watch my reputation trashed when the fault might not be mine. Ed evidently still doesn’t understand that a Boerboel is not a Golden Retriever and experience training “general dogs” is not suitable experience for bite-work training a Boerboel. Any BB owner that is thinking about this type of training needs to get with a profession –experienced- PP trainer BEFORE the pup gets messed up. Was this Akiva’s problem? I certainly don’t know, I wasn’t there! And from the information just now coming to light it probably wasn’t. But many people on this, and other, boards have stated that you cannot train (even obedience) a Boerboel like you would a herding dog. And any trainer or knowledgeable owner knows you can’t train-away bad nerves.

In the same thread in archive 7 Jessica posts
“When I was doing her foundation work, I used a lot of compulsion, which was not that great. After a few months, when she as around 6 months, I started using food which was a little better. I did go a little wrong; I should have used food in the beginning and showed her what i wanted instead of correcting her for not doing something she just didnt' know how to do.”
(could correcting a puppy for something it didn’t understand cause problems ??? )
She also added
“We also ran into a problem at the dog park. Our intact male got into a fight with another intact male and his owner jumped into the middle of the fight. Needless to say, there were problems” (why bring this up when the incident was with their OTHER dog?- you’ll see later)

OK, now with the information just offered by Julie lets see if I understand this correctly:

When Akiva was four months old, Ed and Jessica came on the yellow board asking why she would shy away and try to hide behind their legs when people tried to pet her. (I never saw the post and would have expected them to contact me if they were having a problem, not seeking answers from any stranger with a computer)

As a puppy working in OB, her response to being handled by a trainer was to bite him in the calf. If the trainer tried to interact with her, she would panic and try like crazy to run away

Hi,
We tested Akiva at a local ScH club and then continued at different clubs for a while. Many reputable ScH trainers have refused to work with us - too much defense, not enough prey drive(s). PP work gave us an insight in that Akiva WILL protect with her life when necessary. However it aggravated some other undesirable character traits. She bit a person, albeit on or about the training field but an un-threatening stranger at that.
(from Archive 6-“What’s up with the NABC”)

At around 16 months she was tested for a civil response with some civil agitation. She responded with high-pitched barking and bit a tug. They then took Akiva to Bill Kulla for testing on a sleeve around 18 months. He told them her nerves were too weak for that type of work and they left it alone.
Now Julie continues
I took Akiva to a dog show to experience the environment and to proof her OB under distraction. After a couple hours of being a complete angel, she rushed out to try and bite a woman who was merely walking by. That woman was doing absolutely nothing different than the hundred or so other folks that had walked by that day. The only possible conclusion I could come to on that one was that she was desperate to assert herself to feel in control to some degree or the fact that the woman she chose to try and bite was quite petite and probably looked like an easy target.
One night while we were out walking, someone exited their car without her noticing and slammed the door several yards behind her. She panicked so badly that she tried to bail and run and she pulled one of my ribs out of place and I had a kink in my neck for several days.
Akiva was so noise sensitive that she would jump up and start looking for someone to bite with each round fired from the starter pistol. It doesn’t take a genius to know that noise sensitivity of this caliber equates to a nerve issue.
As she approached true adulthood, her temperament just deteriorated. Instead of getting more tolerant and better with more outings and rewarding experiences, she just got less capable of handling any kind of external stimuli. She bit three people in the months preceding her euthanasia and each one progressively worse in the damage she inflicted…each time being more random, more erratic, more just plain nutso.
The only thing that Ed and Jessica or even I ever did “wrong” with this dog was to believe she could overcome her lack of nerve with the right experiences, training and very conscientious handling practices.
Well, lets see. Was Akiva a bag of nerves, or improperly overstressed by compulsive training methods in her infancy? I don’t know, I wasn’t there! But it does sound like it could have been the nerves she came with. We’ll never know. Why none of her siblings had any similar problems, who can say. Possibly just the luck of the draw.
If these problems manifested themselves at such an early age why would ANY experienced dog owner (as Ed claims to be) allow this to go on for 2 1/2 years. THREE uncalled for bites? One bite would put the dog under severe scrutiny; the second would have been the death warrant. Pretty tough perhaps, but something ANY RESPONSIBLE PERSON would do. Three? Ridiculous! It’s not as if Ed and Jessica were not familiar with what a large, uncontrolled dog could do or the damage it could cause (remember the incident with their intact Mastiff at the Dog Park? “Our intact male got into a fight with another intact male and his owner jumped into the middle of the fight.. needless to say, there were problems” She doesn’t say if the other owner received any bites but I’ve been in the middle of a number of dog fights and I will presume he did.
As far as Julie’s contribution here, I cannot understand why ANY Professional trainer would not have told his client to take the dog home and either put it down or at least hide it away from the public. I noticed that as Ed and Jessica shopped around for a Sch club they were rejected time and time again. Of course the people at these clubs were not being paid to work miracles.
You would think that Ed and Jessica would have gotten the message by now but evidently not. And once again, they never asked for any advice from me or my opinion.
So what we wind up with is owners who refuse to accept the opinions of trainers (paid or otherwise) and after all this previous drama Ed lets his 19 year old daughter take this
“could not make good decisions”
” unpredictable and unreliable”
“ nerve-bag.”
“the decoy was scared to work her”
“As a puppy working in OB, her response to being handled by a trainer was to bite him in the calf”
“Many reputable ScH trainers have refused to work with us”
“she rushed out to try and bite a woman who was merely walking by”
“She panicked so badly that she tried to bail and run and she pulled one of my ribs out of place”
“Akiva was so noise sensitive that she would jump up and start looking for someone to bite with each round fired from the starter pistol. It doesn’t take a genius to know that noise sensitivity of this caliber equates to a nerve issue”
“As she approached true adulthood, her temperament just deteriorated. Instead of getting more tolerant and better with more outings and rewarding experiences, she just got less capable of handling any kind of external stimuli. She bit three people in the months preceding her euthanasia and each one progressively worse in the damage she inflicted…each time being more random, more erratic, more just plain nutso.”,
Dog to a public park.
This is simply NOT responsible dog ownership. Three dog bites and a fight at a dog park? It seems obvious that Jessica could not control Akiva regardless of how much she wanted to. I am 70 years old, been breeding, showing, and some training since I was 9 years old. Most of my dogs have been bully-molosser types. So far NO ONE in the world has ever been the victim of a bite from one of my dogs. Oh, I’ve had a couple of case of “he bit where I had recently been” and I’ve buried a few dogs over the years but I’ve never let one get so out of control that someone got bitten. Was Jessica able to control her dog? The answer is obvious from the results.
Jessica was-and is- a lovely young girl. Her father was supposed to act like an adult.
Did Ed demonstrate any adult responsibility? Did he ever contact the breeder to see if Akiva’s behavior was isolated, or possibly also turned up in any of her relatives? Wouldn’t ANY intelligent dog owner not do that?
Once again, Jessica I'm sorry for your loss.

[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]

Replies:

[ Contact Forum Admin ]

Forum timezone: GMT-7
VF Version: 3.00b, ConfDB:
Before posting please read our privacy policy.
VoyForums(tm) is a Free Service from Voyager Info-Systems.
Copyright © 1998-2019 Voyager Info-Systems. All Rights Reserved.