| Subject: Re: New poll (Nebula v Nebulon) |
Author:
capn hayes
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Date Posted: 06:28:18 10/16/02 Wed
Author Host/IP: NoHost/207.14.48.2
In reply to:
Warspite
's message, "Re: New poll (Nebula v Nebulon)" on 10:03:21 10/15/02 Tue
>>>It would interesting to work out whether the Nebulon
>B
>>>fighters could take the shuttles or not. Given that
>>>the shuttle have shields, I think they would win.
>
>>Are you kidding?
>
>No! If I was kidding I would say 'have you heard the
>one about...' :)
>
>>Their Shuttles man! for God sake against Starfighters?
>
>Forget they are called shuttles, and just look at the
>comparative performance data.
>
>>Who cares if if they have puny little shuttle sized
>>shield generators.
>
>We care because we have seen shuttles take hits from
>capital ships and survive. They should be able to take
>multiple hits from TIEs before the shields fail. On
>the other hand, standard TIE fighters do not have
>shields at all, so even a single glancing hit is
>likely to be fatal.
>
>>They lack maneuverability,
>
>Actually, they are very manouverable. Look at the loop
>that Chakotay performs in Voyager:Initiations. It is
>as tight as anything we have ever seen in Star Wars.Nothing a TIE couldn't manage.
>
>>and type
>>four phasers are considered defensive only.
>
>Of course they are. Starfleet does not consider
>shuttles to be combat craft. However, it doesn't
>matter. They are more than sufficient to destroy
>unshielded TIE fighters.
>
>>They
>>shouldn't even be compared to fighters as they aren't
>>even in the same class. Even Star Trek recognizes
>>this, as they have thier own albeit limited Star
>>Fighters.
>
>Of course, because against the oposition (ie runabouts
>and starships) that they would face in ST , they would
>not last long. However, we are pitting them against
>something from another universe. Look at it this way,
>would you expect an F-15 to win against a Fed shuttle?
>The F-15 is a 'fighter', but it would have its head
>handed to it by a Fed shuttle. Just because the SW
>craft are called fighters and the Fed craft are
>shuttles, doesn't automatically mean the 'fighters'
>win. With shields and warp drive, shuttles have a
>major advantage over the STL, unshielded TIE fighters.
>
>>Runabouts are cooler and are like the Trek
>>version of the YT-1300, which kinda cute, but it is
>>more of a military transport that a fighter. There is
>>a reason why you don't see people "field" shuttles
>>during a battle as combatant's. Because its stupid,
>>not to mention absurd to send poorly armed, and albeit
>>shielded shuttles against trained fighter pilots in
>>military star fighters and yes TIE Defenders do have
>>shields too. TIE Defenders are far more advanced than
>>TIE/In starfighters.
>
>TIE Defenders are so rare, that you rarely see them
>fight against enemies in the SW universe, let alone
>the ST universe. You are much more likely to get
>standard TIE fighters or maybe TIE Interceptors
>(neither of which have shields as standard!).
>Furthermore, it seems to me that if you need to bring
>in the extremely rare, cutting edge TIE Defender to
>defeat standard Federation shuttles, that's a huge
>complement to Federation shuttles.
>
>>if the TIE's were smart he would spread his fighters
>out
>>and strike from multiple points on the shields as this
>>would cause the shields to work harder at dealing
>>energy dissapation, and deflection.
>
>So are you saying that multiple TIEs are needed to
>destroy single shuttles?
NO I WAS TALKING ABOUT AVOIDING TORPEDOS WHILE DESTROYING THE BIG CAPITAL SHIP. THEY WOULDN'T HAVE ANY PROBLEMS WITH THE SHUTTLES AT ALL.If not, what would the other
>shuttles be doing while the TIEs are dfoin this?
>Furthermore, given that shuttles have warp, how are
>the TIEs going to manouver into position? How is warp going to help in a dog fight. With warpdrive you can pretty much just go in a strait line really fast. Wow so the shuttles could run. Don't try to use the flimsy warp strafing tactic here cause I know thats not going to work. Try dog fighting for once. Shuttles sure don't look very manuverable in ANY of the episodes I've seen. Since you'll know doubt sat TIEs in ANH didn't either we can agree that at the very least they are even which is a BIG BIG complement for shuttles.
>
>>I'm not trying to
>>knock Trek here but shuttles are just that shuttles.
>
>And I'm not knocking SW fighters. Its just that
>without shields, and fighter is dead meat. Based on what, do you make that claim. Remember their from another universe! If this was
>X-Wings, it 'might' be different.Oh hell yeah there would be a diference The X-Wings would wipe'em out two and three at a time. Their shuttles for God sake poorly aremed transports against space superiority star FIGHTERS, please try to remember the diference. Besides remembers starfleets policy about warships. They have only recently begun to fact that they need warships and fighters. You never even heard of fighters until the Borg showed up, and they weren't used until the Dominion War. Only recently has starfleet even addressed the issue that maybe having warships and fighters ain't such a bad idea,since we nearly got wiped out a few times. And since every other major power in the galaxy has them why not us?
>
>>Its like sending up a Lear jet with a .50 caliber
>>machineguns and chaff dispensers to do battle with a
>>fully armed F-15 Eagle.
>
>Actually its more like putting a LearJet with .50
>caliber guns against a SPAD (WW1 fighter). Oh really, where is your official "canon" onscreen proof of that little claim. I at least tried to give a somewhat realistic comparison. Yours is utterly absurd, please try to be serious when debating.
>
>>Oh I know most trekkies are
>>going to cry foul when they read this. But it is the
>>truth we have never seen shuttles used as fightercraft
>>EVER.
>
>You are wrong to say never. We have seen them used
>against other shuttle size ships, and in emergencies, Yeah in EMERGENCIES not in regular combat, come on man I know your a better debater than that.
>against large starships. VOY:Basics II and
>VOY:Initiations are good examples. Generally I agree
>they shouldn't last five minutes normally, because
>their oponents would generally be shielded capital
>ships. However, that is not the case in this scenario.
>
>>It doesn't matter if they are armed with type 4
>>phasers or even the dreaded type 5! Starfleet attack
>>fighters are armed with type 8 phasers which are
>>roughly equal to a standard TIE fighters twin laser
>>cannon.
>
>No, Runabouts and Peregrines YES STARFLEET FIGHTERS DO HAVE TYPE EIGHT PHASERS AS SHOWN ON AN EPISODE OF DS9 WHEN SEVERAL MAQUIS SHIPS ARE SHOWN ATTACKING A CARDASSION WARSHIP. LATER IT IS SHOWN TO BE THE SAME SHIPS THAT ARE CALLED PARAGRINES, SO IF THIVES CAN AQUIRE TYPE 8 PHASERS AND MOUNT THEM ON FIGHTERS, THEN IT STANDS TO REASON THAT STARFLEET COULD DO THE SAME WITH THEIR FIGHTERS.(and type 7 and 9a
>shuttles) are armed with type V phasers. Even Miranda
>class starships are only armed with type 7 phasers. Thats because Miranda class ships are old as hell, Note Sisko's ship the Saratoga had those big cannons (which they didn't even use).
>Where do you get your comparison to TIE lasers from? Based on what has been shown on the movies. But since there is no way to really know it is really conjecture. But it seems a fair comparison since both classes of fighter are supposed to be top of the line. i am trying to be some what fair here, unlike some people.
>According to the TM, a 0.28 second discharge from a
>mere type II hand phaser can "explosively uncouple 650
>meter/3 of rock". If a mere type II hand phaser can do
>that, think what a type IV ship phaser will do to
>unshielded TIE fighters. Um, I thought the TM wasn't canon, besides can you show me one, just one example of a type 2 phaser doing that onscreen. I sure as hell don't ever remember seeing anything aproaching level of destruction from a hand phaser. As far as type 4 phasers are concerned they don't seem to carry that much of a punch either. Look at the trouble one had with a semi-truck! Sorry I did resort to using conjecture when comparing TIE's to Starfleet fighters, but that is all anyone else on this debate site does when ever they use an episode of the show as an example to prove their point. Star Trek is nothing but conjecture.
>
>>Yeah major military firepower. I have come to
>>these conclusions after studing several episodes of
>>[DS9] and of course the Star Wars Trilogy in addition
>>to the many many tech guides and RPG gaming material,
>>which I do consider canon since they don't discount
>>the movies, especialy the RPG stuff. Also knowing the
>>complete history of both trek and wars helps. You can
>>be sure that I know this stuff as well as anyone here.
>
>You probably do, but I think you're discounting Fed
>shuttles simply because they are called shuttles.
No not at all but shuttles aren't tactically suited to deal with a dedicated starfighters. Even Star Trek recognizes that, so they "invented" fighters for the show.
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