| Subject: Re: On second thought |
Author:
Marina
|
[
Next Thread |
Previous Thread |
Next Message |
Previous Message
]
Date Posted: 09:40:53 07/05/03 Sat
In reply to:
Lika
's message, "On second thought" on 02:09:35 07/05/03 Sat
First of all, I want to say that I wasn't just talking about you in my post. That's why I said "some people." Your post was part of a catalyst. However, I shall now respond to just you:
>I re-read my post to see if I posted anything that
>might have come off as "This is fact, You are Wrong"
>or that might be seen as bashing a fellow fan. You
>know what, I don't see it. I was giving my opinions,
>my thoughts, and arguments, and just because I didn't
>state it was opinions or spectulations doesn't mean I
>didn't think it was the holy word of CLAMP.
So you DO think that your opinions and speculations are the "holy word of CLAMP?" The grammatical structure of that last sentence indicates that you do. Careful what you write, you might confuse people. Perhaps that's why so much of your writing is coming off as very arrogant and haughty.
>Anyhows, I'm tired of being a pacifist, so here's my
>little rant/argument against the whole idea of "let's
>be nice to each other to a point where we don't give
>out our opinions.
Oh Jesus Christ. I wasn't saying that people shouldn't be able to present their opinions and argue. I used to be an editorial writer myself, and I like nothing better than to do so. My point was that some of the people are coming off as sounding "elitest," to quote the term that you used. My point was that THESE types of fans are the ones polluting the fan pool. I was trying to point out that these fans are no better than any other fan, because of the fact that there are zillions of interpretations, and no one is right or wrong or BETTER. THESE people really need to get over themselves and learn a little respect. I didn't mean don't argue. Good grief.
>we gave our
>intepretation on what may have happened using stuff
>from the manga to back up our points. I don't see
>where the bashing comes in, or where the "You are
>Wrong" comes from. It's more, "I don't agree with you
>because your point here is moot." We're arguing
>points here, not putting people down.
You didn't use anything from the manga to back up your points, other than, "we didn't see it, so it didn't happen." What I saw were a lot of character interps (nothing wrong with that) but that is not "evidence from the manga," it's just interps of what people SEE in the manga.
Telling someone that their point is moot means telling them that it's irrelevant, last I checked the definition of moot. Which I think is very rude and arrogant and is a way of putting people down.
>Being a fan can mean more than "OH I LOVE HIM LET ME
>LICK HIS TOES SQUEAL SHRIEK!" (which I do often
>*dreamy smile*) It can mean getting into discussion,
>defending your beloved characters, seeing things you
>disagree with and pointing it out and giving your POV.
*rolls eyes* Mm hmm, here's some of that arrogance I was talking about. Thank you for that dose of condescending writing. May I have another? I wouldn't be here arguing about fandom if I thought being a fan meant squealing all the time, I'd be at some other board doing just that. Think about it.
>I agree that bashing other fans isn't in the equation,
>but from re-reading the posts, I don't think I or
>Aeanagwen or anyone else who may have voiced their
>opinions in earlier debates were bashing people with a
>few exceptions. Telling people that you think one of
>their points is wrong does not equal bashing the fan.
"a few exceptions?" So you do admit there was bashing then. I didn't say that it was happening in every paragraph. Perhaps I should just clear this up and say again that it keeps SNEAKILY happening WITHIN arguments, it's never flat-out "YOU SUCK AND YOU'RE WRONG." There's always that catty or condescending remark that just makes my blood boil because NO FAN is better than another. For example, certainly there are fans that might not have their facts straight, or who haven't been into something as long, but in time, they'll learn. Even I admit that, and I was just ranting a few weeks ago about having absolutely no patience with fans like that. So they're still learning, big deal. That doesn't make them any less fans. They're still fans, just like everyone here. They share the same love that we do.
And telling someone that their interp./point is wrong isn't nessesarily BASHING the fan, but it is rude. As I said, no interpretation is wrong. People are entitled to their opinions, just as you said. I am not saying don't argue, what I'm saying is that telling someone they're WRONG just because YOU don't agree with their interpretation of things is extremely self-centered and disrespectful. Argue the opposing viewpoint, go right ahead, I encourage such action. But don't tell them they're wrong, just present other possibilities for interpretation.
>Note that I didn't say, "if the characters aren't seen
>having sex, you know they're not." I said if they are
>for sure sure, you'll know it. I need to see things
>to believe it. I'm not ruling out that S&S didn't
>have sex, but I am saying based on what I read in
>manga -becasue I'm a nerd who puts a lot of emphasis
>on canon- I'm VERY inclined to think they didn't.
There's nothing wrong with putting an emphasis on cannon. I do it myself a lot of the time. However, I also think it's very important for fans to be able to read between the lines, and that doing so doesn't make someone "wrong" or a worse fan than someone else. With CLAMP series, I think interpretation is of paramount importance to truly enjoy their stories.
>Besides, if my read my argument, I based the nonsex of
>S/S on more factors than just "you didn't see it." I
>based it on the situation in TB7, Subaru's
>characteristic, where they were in the relationship,
>the way the story was going, and number of other
>things. If you ask me, those kind of "speculations"
>hold more water than that of "oh, just because we
>didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happened" or
>even, "well, he's this years old and it's biological
>to want to have sex so they must have."
Yes, those arguments were fine. They were interps. I didn't touch them. I only went after the "we didn't see it, so it didn't happen" argument. I have no problem with your interps. However, that last sentence there is an interpretation, so no, your interpretations do not "hold more water" than that interpration. They're both just viewpoints, neither one is right or wrong.
>I'm not saying I'm right. I am saying I made a good
>(and possibly a better) argument for my point.
Hell no you didn't. You did NOT make a better argument, all you did was present your side of things. In this case, there is NOT a better argument, or a better interpretation.
>>That's the whole point of a
>>lot of their stuff. You DON'T know. CLAMP leaves many,
>>many, MANY things in their stories up to
>>interpretation, which is part of what makes them so
>>interesting and fan-friendly.
>
>How do you know that CLAMP had that intention? You
>don't know that any more than I know CLAMP's policy is
>"see it or don't believe it." And by the way, I never
>said about CLAMP. I said for myself, I need to see
>things to believe it. I don't know what's going on in
>CLAMP's head than you do.
*sigh* There is plenty of evidence to back up what I said within CLAMP's works. Many, many things are implied and left up to the imagination (besides the other example I cited about the artbook, and the fact that they are VERY secretive in interviews, is what I've observed). In fact, some prime examples of things left up to interpretation that CLAMP put in X:
-Who Kamui's father is (there is a sentense that is worded just so that it makes it seem as if Kamui HAD NO actual father, but that could be argued)
-What exactly Seishirou said to Subaru on Rainbow Bridge.
-And currently, who killed Kanoe?
I think it's pretty fair to assume that CLAMP likes to leave things up to the readers a lot of the time. Keep 'em guessing.
>Actually, they're not officially a couple. Kusanagi
>told Yuzuriha to wait, so they're really a couple.
Which would be why I said couplings, not couples. They've obviously been smooshed together in the story, regardless if they are officially a couple to each other or not.
>I am a great believer that K&Y hasn't kissed. She
>just told him she loved him and she doesn't strike as
>the type to kiss him beforehand. he said no, and I
>think they understand each other about waiting. No
>arguments there.
Jesus, I never said I believed they'd kissed. *sigh* I was citing an example. I even say in the next sentence that I doubt it happened.
>Again, me "spectulating" based on things in the manga.
> Surely I offended no one with that.
Speculations are fine. It's the attitude of that last sentence that offends me.
>>While we're on the subject of "sensual beings,"
>>it seems to me that Seishirou himself is a very
>>sensual being, so why wouldn't he want to seduce
>>someone as beautiful and appealing to him as Subaru?
>
>Who said he didn't? I read TB, and he sure did. But
>I doubt Subaru in his innocence reprociated,
>especially since he found out at the END that he loved
>him and by then it was too late.
>(Note, this is my argument against your point, not
>against you or your idea that they could have done it
>together. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just saying
>that's how I see it. Good grief, I hope I don't have
>to type this disclaimer out after each and every
>argument I make.)
It's not you saying flat-out that you're right, it's the way you WORD things that implies that you believe you're right and your word is absolute. It's VERY condescending and rude. Perhaps you should take stock in how you write things.
While we're on the subject of disclaimers, perhaps I should go back through my message and label each and every one of my EXAMPLES. A lot of what I say are examples, not nessarily things I believe.
>> creators don't WANT there to be a
>>right or wrong answer about what has occurred in their
>>stories.
>
>Do you know that for a fact though?
God damnit, that was why I said SOME creators don't want there to be a right or wrong answer. Do not misquote me if you are going to argue against me. That is just petty and poor conduct, besides. I DO know for a freaking fact that there are creators of series who like to leave things up to interpretation. I do myself as a writer, I know plenty of fanfic authors online who do, online comic authors, book authors, television show creators, JESUS!! Just take a look at the damn creative world. The director of Revolutionary Girl Utena DELIBERATELY leaves things up to interpretation with no right or wrong answer and blatantly says he does. What about Serial Experiments Lain? Evangelion? All of these anime have elements left up to interp. Do I know for a fact. Please.
>No, there is no right or wrong intepretation, but they
>are such things as better intepretations. All
>subjective of course. But I'm all for everyone
>getting their intepretations out so we can dig deep
>into the manga and have some well-meaning discussion.
Yes, they're subjective. Which means one isn't better than the other, just opinion particular to a person. Holy crap, you need a dictionary.
>If there is such thing as mistaken intepretation,
>there must be such thing as a non-mistaken
>intepretation, right? In my dictionary, mistaken
>means wrong, so non-mistaken would have to be...
>right.
*sigh* Okay, I clearly worded this wrong right here. I miss my editorial review. Look, I was trying to say that sometimes people get the FACTS wrong and that can distort their views on things. But such things can be cleared up.
>>To say that Seishirou and Subaru DIDN'T have sex
>>during TB is merely an interpretation.
>
>Based on stuff I saw in the manga. I know it's an
>interpretation, I know it's MY intepretation, but it's
>how I see it and I think I have a very basis for my
>views.
Other people don't see it that way, so that's only your opinion.
>>Such things
>>that could add to an interpretation to the contrary is
>>that Seishirou repeatedly demonstrates the ability to
>>use his powers to make Subaru forget things. Who's to
>>say he didn't seduce him and make him forget?
>
>But we didn't see him actually seduce him and then
>made him forget. Sorry if I need things in print for
>me to believe them. If not, all Homer had to do was
>say, "Hector" and let his readers make up the rest for
>themselves.
Damnit! I didn't say he did! I was offering another view on things. You can't deny that that could be potentially used as evidence.
>(Again, this is not me saying that I am right. This
>is me saying that *I*, Lika Lunn, needs to see things
>in print to believe them, and if she doesn't, she's
>more likely not to believe them, not dismiss them,
>mind you, but she's likely not to believe them.)
Please, what do you think that is? You're dismissing something that could be used as evidence. GET A DICTIONARY, and look up the word "dismiss."
>Oh, btw, I'm a big believer that seeing things happen
>and believing that is much better way to interprate
>things than just "hey, we didn't see this but it could
>have happened."
Jesus H. Christ, how do you even READ CLAMP works? Do you only look at the surface story? If you do, I'm very, very sorry for you because you are missing out. There is NOT a BETTER way to interpret things. If that works for you, FINE, but it does NOT make you better. In fact, to me, it makes you kind of sad. But hey, that's just my opinion.
>>Neither argument is fact.
>
>But they are arguments. That's the point.
Well duh. Why are you echoing me now?
>Even if I didn't put a big sign that said, "THIS IS MY
>OPINION!" I'm sure my saying Subaru would have sex to
>blah blah blah is pretty obviously my opinions.
I was using it as an example. Perhaps I shall put a big sign on it that says "THIS IS AN EXAMPLE." I thought it was pretty obvious that's what it was.
>> Neither one is wrong,
>>technically. Gather evidence and examine it, is all
>>one can do.
>
>And that's all we doing. Goodness, is forgetting to
>put a disclaimer in every post going to make
>everything anyone says fact or think we're saying
>facts? We're all just gathering evidance and
>examining it and giving our conclusions. Some
>conclusions are better than others because some people
>dig deeper than others. No one is right or wrong, but
>some are arguments are better. Sorry if that sounds
>elitist, but it's how *I* feel.
No, that ISN'T what you are doing. What YOU are doing is taking other peoples' evidence that they have gathered and shooting it down for absolutely no reason other than to feed your obviously "elitest" views. Yes, you are very elitest, you are one of the people I've been talking about that's poisoning the fan pool. It's fans like you who pretend that their views or ways of thinking are better than other fans that wreck a lot of the fun of being a fan.
And it's funny that you say that people who dig deeper are better, because earlier you were saying that you don't like to do that. Thanks for that delightful dose of hypocrisy.
>>To say that it is AU to write fics about Seishirou and
>>Subaru having sex at all simply because "we don't see
>>it so it isn't cannon" basically says that ALL
>>fanfiction is AU.
>
>No, AU is fanfic where one thing or several things are
>changed in such a way that it alters the universe
>substantially. Yuzuriha and Kusanagi kissing and
>eating ice cream isn't going to change the character,
>the plotlines, or anything like that. S/S having sex
>may very well because Subaru isn't with the DoHs,
>(well, before the betrayal okay?) and he's with
>Seishirou and the fact that he is with Seishirou makes
>a huge difference in the X canon. True, some fics
>where they have sex isn't AU and I'm not saying
>S/SSex=AU, but there are some, and the writers
>themselves admit, that are AU because the differences
>are huge and the canon no longer count as much.
I KNOW what AU is! I go in the next paragraph to explain what AU is! I'm just not even going to argue about it anymore. I find it amusing that you agreed with me in your first post, then suddenly changed your mind.
>> I think some people need to get
>>their fanfiction definitions straight. To me, AU means
>>a fic in which the characters are borrowed from a
>>series, taken out of their normal settings, and are
>>placed somewhere else.
>
>That's how I see it. And Subaru living with Seishirou
>in the X world is out of his normal setting.
Not nessesarily, but once again, that's speculation. Let's not forget that AU stands for ALTERNATE UNIVERSE. Tsubasa is AU.
>>So to sit there and say "You're wrong, you're wrong
>>and you're wrong," point by point, is a complete waste
>>of time and energy.
>
>First off, fandom in itself is a complete waste of
>time and energy. Good grief, the fact that I work
>such long hours to buy comic books and mangas drives
>my family nuts. But since I'm wasting my time
>anyhows, I'll waste it in any way I want.
Gee, that's a fine way to look at being a fan.
>Secondly, rebutting other people's points is not
>"you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong", it's just
>that, a rebuttal. I'm saying, "no, not possible
>because of this and this and this." If you find that
>offensive or fan-bashing in anyways, then I'm afraid
>you're not going to survive long in a fandom
>discussion unless everyone agrees with what everyone
>else is saying.
Um, I'm just laughing right now. You contradicted yourself. I think I'll just leave it because it speaks for itself.
>>What-ifs, what-could-have-beens,
>>character-study, speculation, interpretation. These
>>are what fanfiction is all about. These are what
>>fandom is all about. Fans shouldn't forget that.
>
>We're not. That's why we're having these discussions.
> Discussions just aren't "OH ISN'T HE CUTE? I WANT TO
>LICK HIS TOES" or "hey, is there is a new characters?"
> Some discussions are confrontation, they have
>conflicting ideas, they have people pointing out flaws
>and holes in another person's arguments.
Oh, thank you! Another condescending comment! Thank you so much for the subtle insult.
>>That is all. They see them a different way than you
>do.
>
>So what? I'm suppose to smile and not argue with
>someone who has a different opinion from mine? I'll
>accept that other people see things differently, but
>I'm not going to smile and accept it if they a) bash a
>character I like, b)make an assumption that has no
>basis in the canon, or c) say thing that I vehemently
>disagree with. I'll agree to disagree with them in
>the end, but chances are I am going to argue with
>them.
Hell no, that's not what I said at all. Argue all you want. I just think you should reconsider the attitude that you present when you write, and how you say things. And PLEASE, learn to keep an open mind about interpretation.
>>Some of you need to get over yourselves and try to
>>respect your fellow fans.
>
>If respect means I smile and nod at everything
>everyone say, forget it.
Screw that, you're just not even following what I said anymore. Being respectful means NOT being so high-and-mighty and saying that peoples' points are "moot." Jesus Christ, dictionary.
>>How about we NOT be unpleasant, rigid and inflexible
>about >things, stop pushing personal agendas
>
>You know what I think is unpleasant, rigid, and
>inflexible? Not being able to rant like I used to.
>Not being able to express my opinions or my
>disagreements or my "speculations". I didn't not bash
>Agent, and neither did Aeanagwen. The fact that she
>thought Aeanagwen was shoving words down her throat
>when Aeanagwen was making her point and backing up her
>opinions only shows me that Agent feels she has a
>right to say whatever she wants without having to hear
>any criticism, backlash, or disagreements with them.
>But like you said, we all share this X space. We have
>to learn to deal with other people who criticise or
>disagrees with us in a more mature way then, "I'll say
>what I want and if you don't like it, don't read."
>
>In a blog, that's fine. But this is message board.
>Gotta learn to live with the other folks who don't
>like what you have to say and will give their opinion
>on it.
I never said you couldn't rant. And I find it highly amusing that here in the end, you finally get my point. Everyone has their own opinions. What you need to do is be respectful of other peoples' opinions and NOT be so haughty about things.
[
Next Thread |
Previous Thread |
Next Message |
Previous Message
]
| |
Feedback: 