| Subject: On second thought |
Author:
Lika
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Date Posted: 02:09:35 07/05/03 Sat
In reply to:
Marina
's message, "Okay then..." on 11:29:32 07/04/03 Fri
I re-read my post to see if I posted anything that might have come off as "This is fact, You are Wrong" or that might be seen as bashing a fellow fan. You know what, I don't see it. I was giving my opinions, my thoughts, and arguments, and just because I didn't state it was opinions or spectulations doesn't mean I didn't think it was the holy word of CLAMP.
Anyhows, I'm tired of being a pacifist, so here's my little rant/argument against the whole idea of "let's be nice to each other to a point where we don't give out our opinions."
>This thread started out as a harmless conversation
>about characters that has somehow once again turned
>into a debate about who's totally wrong and gets to be
>none-too-subtly bashed and who has to be right about
>X.
Neither Aeanagwen or I said Agent was wrong. We were saying that her way didn't necessary apply to all the characters in the manga. Then we gave our intepretation on what may have happened using stuff from the manga to back up our points. I don't see where the bashing comes in, or where the "You are Wrong" comes from. It's more, "I don't agree with you because your point here is moot." We're arguing points here, not putting people down.
>Good lord, have some of you forgotten what it means to be >a fan?
Being a fan can mean more than "OH I LOVE HIM LET ME LICK HIS TOES SQUEAL SHRIEK!" (which I do often *dreamy smile*) It can mean getting into discussion, defending your beloved characters, seeing things you disagree with and pointing it out and giving your POV.
I agree that bashing other fans isn't in the equation, but from re-reading the posts, I don't think I or Aeanagwen or anyone else who may have voiced their opinions in earlier debates were bashing people with a few exceptions. Telling people that you think one of their points is wrong does not equal bashing the fan.
>Sex between Seishirou and Subaru may be entirely
>speculative, yes. I personally say that being able to
>consider what could have happened is part of the fun,
>and makes the story more interesting. But to say that
>"If any characters in their series had sex, you'll
>know," is entirely untrue.
Note that I didn't say, "if the characters aren't seen having sex, you know they're not." I said if they are for sure sure, you'll know it. I need to see things to believe it. I'm not ruling out that S&S didn't have sex, but I am saying based on what I read in manga -becasue I'm a nerd who puts a lot of emphasis on canon- I'm VERY inclined to think they didn't.
Besides, if my read my argument, I based the nonsex of S/S on more factors than just "you didn't see it." I based it on the situation in TB7, Subaru's characteristic, where they were in the relationship, the way the story was going, and number of other things. If you ask me, those kind of "speculations" hold more water than that of "oh, just because we didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happened" or even, "well, he's this years old and it's biological to want to have sex so they must have."
I'm not saying I'm right. I am saying I made a good (and possibly a better) argument for my point.
>That's the whole point of a
>lot of their stuff. You DON'T know. CLAMP leaves many,
>many, MANY things in their stories up to
>interpretation, which is part of what makes them so
>interesting and fan-friendly.
How do you know that CLAMP had that intention? You don't know that any more than I know CLAMP's policy is "see it or don't believe it." And by the way, I never said about CLAMP. I said for myself, I need to see things to believe it. I don't know what's going on in CLAMP's head than you do.
>NO FANFICTION IS CANNON.
That I agree with.
>Yes, couplings like Kusanagi/Yuzuriha exist in the
>manga. This is cannon.
Actually, they're not officially a couple. Kusanagi told Yuzuriha to wait, so they're really a couple.
>If someone were to sit here and read this and say "You
>don't know that! They could have kissed!" would be the
>same thing as someone saying that it can't be known if
>Seishirou and Subaru had sex.
I am a great believer that K&Y hasn't kissed. She just told him she loved him and she doesn't strike as the type to kiss him beforehand. he said no, and I think they understand each other about waiting. No arguments there.
Again, me "spectulating" based on things in the manga. Surely I offended no one with that.
>While we're on the subject of "sensual beings,"
>it seems to me that Seishirou himself is a very
>sensual being, so why wouldn't he want to seduce
>someone as beautiful and appealing to him as Subaru?
Who said he didn't? I read TB, and he sure did. But I doubt Subaru in his innocence reprociated, especially since he found out at the END that he loved him and by then it was too late.
(Note, this is my argument against your point, not against you or your idea that they could have done it together. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just saying that's how I see it. Good grief, I hope I don't have to type this disclaimer out after each and every argument I make.)
>Fanfiction is literally that: interpretation. Opinions
>on characters - also interpretation.
No one is arguing with you on that point.
> creators don't WANT there to be a
>right or wrong answer about what has occurred in their
>stories.
Do you know that for a fact though?
>No one can be right or wrong about interpretation.
What if I said Seishirou was straight? I interprated that he's really in love with Kanoe and he's now in love with her. I can't be wrong, now can I? And of course, no one will allowed to argue with me that I am wrong because their beliefs that he is gay is merely speculation.
No, there is no right or wrong intepretation, but they are such things as better intepretations. All subjective of course. But I'm all for everyone getting their intepretations out so we can dig deep into the manga and have some well-meaning discussion.
>Certainly there can be mistaken interpretation, but
>this comes from a lack of knowledge about certain
>facts, or twisting of the facts for personal agendas
>(which sadly happens in fic writing often).
If there is such thing as mistaken intepretation, there must be such thing as a non-mistaken intepretation, right? In my dictionary, mistaken means wrong, so non-mistaken would have to be... right.
>To say that Seishirou and Subaru DIDN'T have sex
>during TB is merely an interpretation.
Based on stuff I saw in the manga. I know it's an interpretation, I know it's MY intepretation, but it's how I see it and I think I have a very basis for my views.
>Such things
>that could add to an interpretation to the contrary is
>that Seishirou repeatedly demonstrates the ability to
>use his powers to make Subaru forget things. Who's to
>say he didn't seduce him and make him forget?
But we didn't see him actually seduce him and then made him forget. Sorry if I need things in print for me to believe them. If not, all Homer had to do was say, "Hector" and let his readers make up the rest for themselves.
(Again, this is not me saying that I am right. This is me saying that *I*, Lika Lunn, needs to see things in print to believe them, and if she doesn't, she's more likely not to believe them, not dismiss them, mind you, but she's likely not to believe them.)
Oh, btw, I'm a big believer that seeing things happen and believing that is much better way to interprate things than just "hey, we didn't see this but it could have happened."
>Neither argument is fact.
But they are arguments. That's the point.
>To say that the only reason Subaru would have sex with
>Seishirou "is to drown himself in pain, or in anger,
>or just to hurt the other person," is merely someone
>else's interpretation of Subaru's character. Other
>fans don't see it that way.
Even if I didn't put a big sign that said, "THIS IS MY OPINION!" I'm sure my saying Subaru would have sex to blah blah blah is pretty obviously my opinions.
> Neither one is wrong,
>technically. Gather evidence and examine it, is all
>one can do.
And that's all we doing. Goodness, is forgetting to put a disclaimer in every post going to make everything anyone says fact or think we're saying facts? We're all just gathering evidance and examining it and giving our conclusions. Some conclusions are better than others because some people dig deeper than others. No one is right or wrong, but some are arguments are better. Sorry if that sounds elitist, but it's how *I* feel.
>To say that it is AU to write fics about Seishirou and
>Subaru having sex at all simply because "we don't see
>it so it isn't cannon" basically says that ALL
>fanfiction is AU.
No, AU is fanfic where one thing or several things are changed in such a way that it alters the universe substantially. Yuzuriha and Kusanagi kissing and eating ice cream isn't going to change the character, the plotlines, or anything like that. S/S having sex may very well because Subaru isn't with the DoHs, (well, before the betrayal okay?) and he's with Seishirou and the fact that he is with Seishirou makes a huge difference in the X canon. True, some fics where they have sex isn't AU and I'm not saying S/SSex=AU, but there are some, and the writers themselves admit, that are AU because the differences are huge and the canon no longer count as much.
> I think some people need to get
>their fanfiction definitions straight. To me, AU means
>a fic in which the characters are borrowed from a
>series, taken out of their normal settings, and are
>placed somewhere else.
That's how I see it. And Subaru living with Seishirou in the X world is out of his normal setting.
>So to sit there and say "You're wrong, you're wrong
>and you're wrong," point by point, is a complete waste
>of time and energy.
First off, fandom in itself is a complete waste of time and energy. Good grief, the fact that I work such long hours to buy comic books and mangas drives my family nuts. But since I'm wasting my time anyhows, I'll waste it in any way I want.
Secondly, rebutting other people's points is not "you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong", it's just that, a rebuttal. I'm saying, "no, not possible because of this and this and this." If you find that offensive or fan-bashing in anyways, then I'm afraid you're not going to survive long in a fandom discussion unless everyone agrees with what everyone else is saying.
>What-ifs, what-could-have-beens,
>character-study, speculation, interpretation. These
>are what fanfiction is all about. These are what
>fandom is all about. Fans shouldn't forget that.
We're not. That's why we're having these discussions. Discussions just aren't "OH ISN'T HE CUTE? I WANT TO LICK HIS TOES" or "hey, is there is a new characters?" Some discussions are confrontation, they have conflicting ideas, they have people pointing out flaws and holes in another person's arguments.
>That is all. They see them a different way than you do.
So what? I'm suppose to smile and not argue with someone who has a different opinion from mine? I'll accept that other people see things differently, but I'm not going to smile and accept it if they a) bash a character I like, b)make an assumption that has no basis in the canon, or c) say thing that I vehemently disagree with. I'll agree to disagree with them in the end, but chances are I am going to argue with them.
>Some of you need to get over yourselves and try to
>respect your fellow fans.
If respect means I smile and nod at everything everyone say, forget it.
>We all like X and we all
>have to share the space of X fandom.
Why it's important for others to understand that giving your opinions is not bashing anyone. I'm not going to stay quiet because I might step on someone's toe if I say something they disagree with.
>How about we NOT be unpleasant, rigid and inflexible about >things, stop pushing personal agendas
You know what I think is unpleasant, rigid, and inflexible? Not being able to rant like I used to. Not being able to express my opinions or my disagreements or my "speculations". I didn't not bash Agent, and neither did Aeanagwen. The fact that she thought Aeanagwen was shoving words down her throat when Aeanagwen was making her point and backing up her opinions only shows me that Agent feels she has a right to say whatever she wants without having to hear any criticism, backlash, or disagreements with them. But like you said, we all share this X space. We have to learn to deal with other people who criticise or disagrees with us in a more mature way then, "I'll say what I want and if you don't like it, don't read."
In a blog, that's fine. But this is message board. Gotta learn to live with the other folks who don't like what you have to say and will give their opinion on it.
Lika
CTS is KILLING HER!
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