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Date Posted: 12:35:26 09/16/02 Mon
Author: QUITTNER
Subject: Re: The Noahide system of law

Ray, you wrote, in part: >>> ... to convince Christians to abandon Christ <<<
..... As I see it, the problem is that Christianity has evolved considerably over the many centuries, and there are now very many denominations/versions. Obviously they can't all be right, maybe none of the current ones are right.
..... Originally Christianity was a sect/cult of Judaism, with Jesus just a Jewish social reformer who helped many people. He never thought of himself as God, or a son of God, except that we are all children of God if it is true that God created us.
..... According to the 10 Commandments neither Jews nor Christians are permitted to have any other God, and some versions of Christianity have claimed that Jesus is God, which is not permitted, but many Jews apparently believe/accept that this is a basic current teaching of Christianity; I can understand that Jews cannot accept that more than one God exists, and Jews conclude that therefore Christianity must be quite wrong. They think that Jesus per the 4th official gospel claimed to be God, while Jesus obviously had no control over what was written about him many years after his crucifixion.

>>> The basic doctrine is that God gave the Noahide Laws to Adam and Noah and they applied to all mankind, but then the world forgot them. Moses gave the Mosaic Law to the Children of Israel and then (remember this is all from the Talmud) Moses reaffirmed the Noahide Laws for gentiles. <<<
..... Probably the writers of the Talmud believed that the version of the bible available to them actually reflected what really happened, but probably "history" as a part of the stories handed down mouth to mouth (orally) contained a lot of added fiction similarly as the stories written by Homer.

>>> ... the judges of a Noahide court are not Christian, they are subject to Talmudic authority....<<<
..... I think of the Talmud as just a commentary and minutes of discussion sessions of Jewsih clergy, with the supreme (normal) Jewish authority residing in the 5 books of Moses (the Pentateuch = Torah), not in the Talmud. Actually the source of much of what is in the Torah probably are Jewish clergy, not God, and very likely Jesus made that distinction, possibly rejecting some of the parts obviously(?) not by God. (See also below)

>>> The Talmud clearly defines Christianity, (the teaching that Christ is the son of God) as blasphemy and idolatry. <<<
..... That probably is correct as seen from the Jews' point of view, but it is based on a later, garbled, version of Christianity, not on the FIRST version (by Jesus).

>>> ... they don't even hesitate to declare their intention to outlaw Christianity and to execute those who refuse to submit. <<<
..... I suppose the Jews have garbled versions of Judaism just as Christians have garbled versions of Christianity. Can Noahides document the basis of their beliefs? And do they have the authority to censure anyone other than their own members? No, I haven't yet looked at the links you mentioned.

>>> ... They have already succeeded in having the US government endorse the Noahide Laws. For now it is mostly just in writing. But there is a new Judicial program in the US called Justice 2020 that has been adopted by many states. It gives far reaching powers to judges to dispense with due process and to more or less become judge and jury. <<<
..... I am surprised! To what extent does this violate the US constitution? Have there been legal challenges of this?

>>> ... It does not mention Noah nor the so called Noahide Laws.<<<
..... Then under whose authority do Noahides operate?

>>> ... later preaching salvation by grace. <<<
..... I doubt that Jesus actually taught that. That's part of later versions of Christianity.

>>> They say that the original intent of Christ and the Church was to set up a 2 people of God legalist system. The Jews keeping the Mosaic Law as the principal people of God and the Gentiles keeping the Noahide Laws (under the direction of the Rabbis) as the second people of God. <<<
..... No. Jesus started Christianity by Jews for Jews, and the split came later, after the crucifixion, in order to get a lot more quantity of non-Jewish recruits at the expense of the quality of the members of the Kingdom of God.

>>> To the Noahide promoters there is no salvation in Christ. Salvation comes from adhering to the Noahide Laws and submitting to rabbinical authority. <<<
..... No. Salvation comes from living in a special, separate from "the world", theocratic communal community (The Kingdom of God) as described in Acts 2:44-47 and Acts 4:32-37 under only God's (their absolute king's) authority, not that of the rabbis. nor that of the priests, nor that of other clergy.

>>> The "unwritten oral law" (the Mishnah) is what Christ condemned as the traditions of men that nullify the word of God. <<<
..... Yes, Jesus very likely wanted a return to the laws as originated by God, and by God only.

>>> The Talmud openly states that it is the duty of Jews to kill all gentiles.... <<<
..... Which of the two kinds of Talmud and which tractate(s) states this? I'd like to look that up and see what conditions are attached to this.

>>> There is no discussion of Jewish vs Non Jewish Christians in the Talmud. All Christians are considered Minim (blasphemers).<<<
..... I suppose by the time the Talmud was written the Paulist version for non-Jews had won over, and eliminated Jesus' and the other Jewish Christians' version, with the remaining Christians forced by clergy to believe that Jesus was much more than just a very good Jewish man.

>>> If you think that's a good idea and you fancy a religion that insists you deny the divinity of Christ and that you accept rabbinical authority over your religion and that you base your salvation on the keeping of a few little legalistic laws instead of the blood of Jesus shed for the remission of sins, then far be it from me to discourage you. Go for it. Best of luck. <<<
..... It should be quite voluntary now what people believe. We are no longer under the authority of the clerics with their self-appointed means of enforcing on all people their particular garbled version of Christianity. They are no longer permitted to burn people such as "witches", or non-believers, to death on a stake or otherwise.

>>> As for me and my house we'll stick with Jesus. <<<
..... That's OK, but it should be the original version of Christianity, not a later, garbled one, of who Jesus was, what he did, and what he wanted of his disciples.

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