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Date Posted: 09:07:26 08/07/03 Thu
Author: Ray
Subject: Re: The Noahide system of law
In reply to: QUITTNER 's message, "Re: The Noahide system of law" on 12:35:26 09/16/02 Mon

Quittner
>Ray, you wrote, in part: " ... to convince Christians to
>abandon Christ"
>As I see it, the problem is that Christianity has evolved
>considerably over the many centuries, and there are now
>very many denominations/versions.Obviously they can't all
>be right, maybe none of the current ones are right.
>..... Originally Christianity was a sect/cult of
>Judaism, with Jesus just a Jewish social reformer who
>helped many people. He never thought of himself as
>God, or a son of God, except that we are all children
>of God if it is true that God created us.
---------------
-Ray-
You obviously don't know the NT scriptures. Jesus is the "only begotten Son of God". He is "The Christ, the Son of the Living God". He is the "I AM" that spoke to Moses from the burning bush. He made it very clear that He was the promised Messiah, the Christ, the Redeemer, the way the truth and the light, the door to the sheepfold, the good shepherd etc etc etc etc.
---------------------
Quittner
>..... According to the 10 Commandments neither Jews
>nor Christians are permitted to have any other God,
>and some versions of Christianity have claimed that
>Jesus is God, which is not permitted, but many Jews
>apparently believe/accept that this is a basic current
>teaching of Christianity; I can understand that Jews
>cannot accept that more than one God exists, and Jews
>conclude that therefore Christianity must be quite
>wrong.
------------------------
Ray
Jesus is not "another" God. He is the very I AM that dictated the 10 commandments to Moses. He took on human form. That was the only way he could redeem us. He died in our place and thereby paid for our sins. He is the son of God and the son of man He was human, flesh and blood like us but with the mind and heart and power of God.

---------------
Quittner
>..... Probably the writers of the Talmud believed that
>the version of the bible available to them actually
>reflected what really happened, but probably "history"
>as a part of the stories handed down mouth to mouth
>(orally) contained a lot of added fiction similarly as
>the stories written by Homer.
--------------
Ray
Whatever they believed, the simple matter is that the oral traditions change and negate the true scriptures, Jesus said so. So even if they believe it that doesn't mean I have to. And I certainly don't intend to let them impose their heresy on me.

------------
Quittner
I think of the Talmud as just a commentary and
>minutes of discussion sessions of Jewsih clergy, with
>the supreme (normal) Jewish authority residing in the
>5 books of Moses (the Pentateuch = Torah), not in the
>Talmud.
---------------------
Ray
It would surprise me Quittner if you truly didn't know that the Talmud is 99% of Rabbinic studies. The 5 books of Moses are used ceremonially and their interpretation always passes through the Talmud.
-------------------
Quittner
Actually the source of much of what is in the
>Torah probably are Jewish clergy, not God, and very
>likely Jesus made that distinction, possibly rejecting
>some of the parts obviously(?) not by God.
-----------------
Ray
Be that as it may. The 5 books of Moses wouldn't interest me at all if they didn't lead to Jesus as Savior.It's certain that the Talmud and the Noahide Laws don't lead in that direction.
--------------------
Ray
>>>> The Talmud clearly defines Christianity, (the
>teaching that Christ is the son of God) as blasphemy
>and idolatry. <<<
----------------
Quittner
>..... That probably is correct as seen from the Jews'
>point of view, but it is based on a later, garbled,
>version of Christianity, not on the FIRST version (by
>Jesus).
---------------
Ray
How is it Quittner that you somehow know a "true" Christianity that the Christians have forgotten. That just happens to depend on the Talmud for its "truth".
----------------------
Ray
>... they (Noahide Promoters) don't even hesitate to
>declare their intention to outlaw Christianity and to
>execute those who refuse to submit.
------------
Quittner
>..... I suppose the Jews have garbled versions of
>Judaism just as Christians have garbled versions of
>Christianity. Can Noahides document the basis of their
>beliefs? And do they have the authority to censure
>anyone other than their own members? No, I haven't yet
>looked at the links you mentioned.
---------------
Ray
That's just the point here. I don't care what they believe as long as it doesn't interfere with my rights. But the stated aim of the antichrists pushing the Noahide Laws is to impose their theocracy one everyone. No thanks!!
-------------
Ray
... They have already succeeded in having the US
>government endorse the Noahide Laws. For now it is
>mostly just in writing. But there is a new Judicial
>program in the US called Justice 2020 that has been
>adopted by many states. It gives far reaching powers
>to judges to dispense with due process and to more or
>less become judge and jury.
----------------
Quittner
>..... I am surprised! To what extent does this violate
>the US constitution? Have there been legal challenges
>of this?
----------------
Ray
If there is anything left of the constitution after Bush and his New World Order get finished, the Noahide Commondeath will finish it off entirely. As for legal challenges, realize that the Noahide laws were called the bedrock of the American civilization by unanymous vote of both houses of Congress and signed by the President. Then take a look at the supreme court's composition and reflect a moment about how all that came about. No there have not been any serious legal challenges to the endorsement of the Noahide Laws. It would be futile costly and dangerous to even try it.
--------------------
Ray
>... It (the New Testament) does not mention Noah nor the so called Noahide Laws.<<<
---------------------
Quittner
>..... Then under whose authority do Noahides operate?
--------------------
Ray
Very good question Quittner. If it's anti-christ then it must be antichrist, Don't you think?
--------------------
Ray
... later preaching salvation by grace.
--------------------
Quittner
>..... I doubt that Jesus actually taught that. That's
>part of later versions of Christianity.
-------------------
Ray
Then what did Jesus mean when he said "I am the way the truth and the Light, No man cometh unto the father but by Me.? Or when He said, "He that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live.?" Or When He said, "Thy sins be forgiven thee.?" Or a hundred other times when Jesus clearly stated and demonstrated His authority over sin and death (without the law).
----------------------
Ray

They (ACs) say that the original intent of Christ and
>the Church was to set up a 2 people of God legalist
>system. The Jews keeping the Mosaic Law as the
>principal people of God and the Gentiles keeping the
>Noahide Laws (under the direction of the Rabbis) as
>the second people of God.
-------------------
Quittner
>..... No. Jesus started Christianity by Jews for Jews,
>and the split came later, after the crucifixion, in
>order to get a lot more quantity of non-Jewish
>recruits at the expense of the quality of the members
>of the Kingdom of God.
-------------
Ray
I already treated that above Quittner. Jesus clearly told His disciples to "go into all the world" and to "teach all nations". He himself witnessed about the kingdom to a Samaritan woman and made it clear that it was for all.
I don't know where you get your doctrines here but they are not from the Word.
----------------------
Ray
>>>> To the Noahide promoters there is no salvation in
>Christ. Salvation comes from adhering to the Noahide
>Laws and submitting to rabbinical authority.
----------------------
Quittner
>..... No. Salvation comes from living in a special,
>separate from "the world", theocratic communal
>community (The Kingdom of God) as described in Acts
>2:44-47 and Acts 4:32-37 under only God's (their
>absolute king's) authority, not that of the rabbis nor >that of the priests, nor that of other clergy..
----------------------
Ray
No Quittner, Read the Noahide sites, they clearly state that (for gentiles) salvation is "earned" by observance of the Noahide Laws. They even have a bonus program whereby one can earn extra points with God by stealing the points of others somehow. I'll post the link when I find it.
-------------------
Ray
> The "unwritten oral law" (the Mishnah) is what
>Christ condemned as the traditions of men that nullify
>the word of God. <<<
-------------------
Quittner
>..... Yes, Jesus very likely wanted a return to the
>laws as originated by God, and by God only.
----------------------
Ray
No Quittner, Read the gospels before you try to interpret them, Christ said His body was broken and his blood was shed as a new and better Testament to replace the old Testament. He didn't come to enforce the Law He came to fulfill it.

--------------------
Ray
>>>> The Talmud openly states that it is the duty of
>Jews to kill all gentiles....
-----------------
Quittner
..... Which of the two kinds of Talmud and which
>tractate(s) states this? I'd like to look that up and
>see what conditions are attached to this.
-------------------------
Ray
The Authorized Soccino edition of the Babylonian Talmud
Leah has printed some of this sort of Talmudic references and I will post others if you please.
-------------------------
Ray
>>>> There is no discussion of Jewish vs Non Jewish
>Christians in the Talmud. All Christians are
>considered Minim (blasphemers).<<<
----------------------
Quittner
>..... I suppose by the time the Talmud was written the
>Paulist version for non-Jews had won over, and
>eliminated Jesus' and the other Jewish Christians'
>version, with the remaining Christians forced by
>clergy to believe that Jesus was much more than just a
>very good Jewish man.
------------------------
Ray
Paul never suggested killing Jews. Yet right in the Talmud it is stated that it is a religious duty to kill, rob, cheat, and enslave the goyim. This is not just stated once but again and again.
-----------------------
Ray
>>>> If you think that's a good idea and you fancy a
>religion that insists you deny the divinity of Christ
>and that you accept rabbinical authority over your
>religion and that you base your salvation on the
>keeping of a few little legalistic laws instead of the
>blood of Jesus shed for the remission of sins, then
>far be it from me to discourage you. Go for it. Best
>of luck.
---------------------
Quittner
>..... It should be quite voluntary now what people
>believe. We are no longer under the authority of the
>clerics with their self-appointed means of enforcing
>on all people their particular garbled version of
>Christianity. They are no longer permitted to burn
>people such as "witches", or non-believers, to death
>on a stake or otherwise.
----------------------
Ray
That's the very issue here Quittner, The Noahide Commondeath will be a revival of just that sort of theocratic abuse. I'm with you on this point, I'm all for liberty and freedom. As long as someone else's exercise of liberty doesn't interfere with my own.
>>>> As for me and my house we'll stick with Jesus. <<<
-------------------------
Quittner
>..... That's OK, but it should be the original version
>of Christianity, not a later, garbled one, of who
>Jesus was, what he did, and what he wanted of his
>disciples.
----------------------
Ray
Do you mean to say Quittner, that if my idea of Christianity doesn't meet your particular standards that you would try to prevent me and my house from the right to worship as we please???

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