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Subject: Ha, Well...


Author:
Dave (UK)
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Date Posted: 16:08:21 01/05/05 Wed
In reply to: Jim (Canada) 's message, "Flags at the Scottish Parliament" on 14:25:29 01/05/05 Wed

Jim, you wouldn't believe the debacle surrounding the flag issue at Holyrood. In any sensible country, you would expect to see the national flag, and the state/provincial flag alongside (i.e. the Union Flag and Saltire). However, in Scotland the story so far goes as follows:

Firstly, when the Scottish Parliament was completed, five flag poles were erected to display any combination of flags you could think of, as well as any courtesy flags for visiting dignitaries.

However, this merely provoked a lengthy discussion as to which flags should be displayed, as Westminster guidelines dictate that the Union flag be flown on specific days, although they do not specify which, if any flag, should be flown permanently.

The SNP were outraged that the Saltire was not flown automatically, so the executive agreed that the Union Flag, Saltire and EU flag (no doubt to curry favour with the grant giving bodies of Brussels, their regional spiritual masters) should be flown permanently, to please everyone. Perhaps, but after the SNP described this as a “victory for Scotland” they proceeded to claim the measures did not go far enough. Yes, you guessed it; they want the Saltire to be the ONLY flag flying among the five flagpoles. One wonders whether they wanted a sole Saltire flying amongst naked poles, or whether they wanted an array of identical flags, analogous to a White House press conference.

However, the Parliament agreed on the three flags, which left the question of what to do with the remaining two flagpoles.

Well, the obvious resolution to this problem was to spend even more taxpayers’ money removing the two additional flagpoles from the site. So now we have three flagpoles, five spotlights and two temporary flagpoles, for visiting dignitaries.

Only in Scotland…

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Replies:
[> [> Subject: about that EU flag...


Author:
Dave (UK)
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Date Posted: 16:22:41 01/05/05 Wed

I wish I could promise to do something about that during my next visit to Edinburgh. However, I fear the flagpoles are too high and the security too tight, even for me...

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[> [> [> Subject: Double standards again...


Author:
Andrew
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Date Posted: 17:04:21 01/05/05 Wed

You complain about the EU flag yet want to remove the Union flag? You're doing what you preach against.

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Eh?


Author:
Dave (UK)
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Date Posted: 21:35:03 01/05/05 Wed

I don't believe that anyone here would want to remove the Union Flag, perhaps you should read my post again...

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[> [> [> [> Subject: Flagz II


Author:
Andrew
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Date Posted: 15:49:00 01/06/05 Thu

"I don't believe that anyone here would want to remove the Union Flag, perhaps you should read my post again..."

Perhaps I should have rewritten the post! I meant that you guys seem to want to remove the European Union flag, but object to the British Union flag being taken down.

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[> [> [> [> [> Subject: Right...


Author:
Dave (UK)
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Date Posted: 16:02:44 01/06/05 Thu

Yes, but there is a fundamental difference. The UK is a nation whereas the EU is not (yet!) Besides, as Ed pointed out, we have very different positions on these flags, as they represent different things entirely (i.e the union of British people versus the union of European people)

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: UK...


Author:
Andrew
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Date Posted: 16:07:29 01/06/05 Thu

No Dave, the UK is NOT a nation. It is a collection of nations, this is why you have various *national* bodies for Scotland and Wales (notably sports, but including arts councils etc). The danger with the EU is when it does just this... it may claim to be some kind of nation in the future, with just as much lack of legality behind it. The EU will merely be doing what the UK did.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Dear God


Author:
Ed Harris (London)
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Date Posted: 16:22:55 01/06/05 Thu


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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Dear God what?


Author:
Andrew
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Date Posted: 16:24:18 01/06/05 Thu

Many unionists in different parts of Britain consider themselves to belong to different nations. What's wrong with that? Why is it incompatible with being in the UK? Why the big need to get rid of nations and cultures? Isn't this what we hear people say the EU intends to do?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: The British are a single people


Author:
Owain (UK)
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Date Posted: 16:37:29 01/06/05 Thu

Britain is a nation, forged from three others. I am a British nationalist, proub of my nation (Britain). I also happen to be Welsh. Germany was made up of different nations, but thye are nited now as one nation, the smae can be said for the UK. Have you never heard politicians refer to THE nation?

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: nations


Author:
andrew
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Date Posted: 17:39:44 01/06/05 Thu

"Have you never heard politicians refer to THE nation?"

Yes. And sometimes they do it referring to England alone. Both usages are to be heard. I don't see why the English have a problem being a nation... why not? A happy union of nations sounds better than an unhappy union of denied ones.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: The FCS promotes a federal ideal...


Author:
Dave (UK)
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Date Posted: 18:21:50 01/06/05 Thu

...which would encourage Scottish/English/Welsh/NI identity within the union. The constituent parts of the UK, and potentially FC would have identities just as strong as they have today.

You do not need legal nationhood to have identity.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: The UK and the FC would be similar


Author:
Jim (Canada)
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Date Posted: 19:11:50 01/06/05 Thu

The FC would actually be just an expanded UK. Instead of a union of just England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, we would add Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Seven instead of four (and potentially more). Then, we would complete devolution by making the whole thing a federation with national parliaments for all and a federal parliament for the whole union.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: When I say that...


Author:
Ed Harris (London)
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Date Posted: 16:42:40 01/06/05 Thu

... I am amazed to hear the UK defined as something other than a nation. It is a nation with four countries in it, or, alternatively, a country with four nations in it. However you muck about with the words, it has one head of state, a central parliament and civil service, one army, one navy, once air force, one seat at the UN, ditto NATO. There are, I concede, many people who wish that this were not the case, but until Plaid Cymru, Sinn Fein and the SNP get their way, we're just going to have to live with it.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: nations ii


Author:
andrew
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Date Posted: 17:41:56 01/06/05 Thu

Do you think that the Scottish and Welsh football and rugby teams etc should be abolished by law?

When is a nation not a nation? The Soviet Union wasn't one. The Spanish aren't one. You could make good cases the same way for India, and certainly the west of "China"

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: ahem


Author:
Owain (UK)
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Date Posted: 18:18:30 01/06/05 Thu

Spain IS a nation, it just happens to include people within its borders who disagree. Tibet and Sianking are ntaions that happened to be ruledby another (same with basque and other minor palces in Spain), this does not stop China from being a nation, you could say though that itisnt a nation-state.

Oh and BTW I would like to see the Welsh and Scottish sports teams abolished.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: sports teams etc


Author:
Andrew
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Date Posted: 18:21:37 01/06/05 Thu

The Catalans and Basques are nations...

"Oh and BTW I would like to see the Welsh and Scottish sports teams abolished."

I'd like to see you try. Then you'd see democracy in action.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Indeed


Author:
Owain (UK)
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Date Posted: 18:26:30 01/06/05 Thu

I dont dney Basques and Catalans are ANtions, but thats no reason to deny Spain its nationhood. Like China you could say it isnt a nation-state.

And yes a refferendum to megre the sports temas would fail miserably. But its something to consider for the future.

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[> [> Subject: So that's why it took so long...


Author:
Roberdin
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Date Posted: 16:29:31 01/05/05 Wed


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[> [> [> Subject: ...


Author:
Dave (UK)
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Date Posted: 22:25:44 01/05/05 Wed

Well yes, that in addition to the fact that the flagpoles themselves were architect designed, each of varying thinness and length, and fashioned from rare isotopes.

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[> [> Subject: How baout suggesting the Commonwealth flag on one of those two spare poles?


Author:
Jim (Canada)
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Date Posted: 16:33:34 01/05/05 Wed


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[> [> [> Subject: I am just glad and relieved that the Union Jack made it to a permanent place there


Author:
Jim (Canada)
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Date Posted: 16:35:45 01/05/05 Wed


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