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| Subject: right-wing socialist | |
Author: Owain (UK) | [ Next Thread |
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] Date Posted: 22:35:03 12/02/04 Thu In reply to: Owain (UK) 's message, "right wing youth" on 19:50:13 12/02/04 Thu It seems I am once again alone in my views. I am socialist. A right-winger on almost any issue you care to name until you come to things like privatisation, National insurance and health care. Its my other views (which I consider to be more important than the NHS) that put me in the right-wing. [ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Ah, so a National Socialist, then? | |
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Author: Owain the Fourth, Fifth, Sixth and possibly Seventh [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 22:46:56 12/02/04 Thu So what you're saying is that you simultaneously support a resurgence of nationalism (all across Europe, apparently - you quote a Hapsburg, who I'm sure would be all too happy to see a return to nostalgia for the old Austria) and the welfare state. And you're not crazy about those nasty foreigners. Where have I heard that one before? I wonder. Wait a second, wasn't that German bloke with the moustache a national socialist? What was his name again? Adolf something-or-other... [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: I do sincerely hope that you are alone in your views | |
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Author: Ian (Australia) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 01:18:54 12/03/04 Fri The mythical Owain of the increasingly large numbers has it right, as far as I can tell. We have seen the ideological combination you are talking about, and we fought a very, very nasty war to try and rid the world of it. I would, if necessary, be prepared to go to war myself should it become necessary to perform the job again. I must say, young man, that I get a distinct mental shudder when I read some of your comments. I find both of your terms – "right wing" and "socialist" – equally distressing. I find that simplistic divisions of complex issues into "left" and "right" are usually a sign of soft-headedness dressing itself up as willpower. I have no problem at all with being proud of one's own culture, but I can't see why it should ever descend to the hostile, bigoted, bone-headed flag-waving and name-calling of nationalism. I believe that you are playing a dangerous game, Owain, and I hope that you will grow out of it. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Owain.... | |
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Author: David (Australia) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 13:26:21 12/03/04 Fri I agree with you, Ian. Owain's views seem to fit in rather disturbingly with a party known in Australia as the One Nation Party. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Wait a second | |
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Author: Steph (U.S.) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 04:50:09 12/03/04 Fri Just because Owain is patriotic and socialist that does not necessarily mean he is a fascist. There have been ok democratic socialists who were also nationalists. I mean as libertarian-liberal nationalist, they are not my favorite, but they are not all dictators in waiting. Unless he has been posting hyper nationalist – anti freedom drivel and I have missed it, let’s let him explain his beliefs a little before we jump all over him. Remember he is only 15. On the other hand Owain, Nationalism and Socialism are both potent forms of collectivism and mixing them together can give fairly nasty results. So please explain your views to the board so we can see where you are coming from and don’t have to feel we need to sleep with loaded guns by our beds. Of course as a good yank I do that anyway, but I like to think of it as participating in a long standing Anglo-American tradition of anti authoritarianism, not as a practical necessity. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: my views | |
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Author: Owain (UK) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 18:35:11 12/03/04 Fri What follows is an outline of my views and beliefs. Socialism - Like most things should never be taken to the extreme. But I cant accept any form of laissez-faire system of things. Freedom is good, but that doesnt mean people should have the freedom to pay for there own health care. I am a great fan of the NHS and would hate to see it privatised. The welfare state is worth dying for. I am opposed to privatisation of public services, though I recognise the danger of allowing a governemnt to get its hands on every sector of the countries industry and infrastructure. Certainly I would like an end to privatised rail network. Nationalism - It would be nice to have a government that actualy loved the country dont you think? I love this country (Britain that is, just so were all clear what I belive my country to be) and would never accept any other nation as my own, I shall not adopt any other. How do I justify my nationalism? Do I really need to? I love my country. Britain made me and in return I shall love it and never abandon it. Differing views of what nationalism actualy is. If England football supporters wave the St George they are patriots, if Welsh supporters wave the Dragon, they are nationalists. I was always told that those Seperatists waving that flag were nationalists. It made sense to me then to call myself a nationalist when I was waving the union jack and saying how much I loved my country (Britain), doing no more than those Welsh "nationalists". Though to many this came accross as simple patriotism, just because I was waving a different flag. This is stupid. I am no more or less a patriot/nationalist/whatever than those seperatists, the difference is that I know what my counry really is. So whether I am a nationalist or a patriot is all down to perception, note that I have no sympathies for the BNP or the order of St George or the national front or any other similar organisations. Having both Socialist and Nationalist views does not make me a National-Socialist. I am just a proud Britain who likes to share. I am extreme in niether direction. My other prinicple views consider Unionism and Monarchism. I am British, thats all that matters. I love Britain and I love the Union. I am a monarchist because I ahve a deep respect for my countries traditions and form of Governmnt and also for purely ideological reasons. I genuinely belive that constitutional monarchy is the greatest form of government yet discovered, though I recognise not all nations would be suited to such a system. I do believe that ones patriotism and good character can be judged by their loyalty to there monarch. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: that should have read | |
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Author: Steph (U.S.) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 04:54:33 12/03/04 Fri I mean as a libertarian-liberal nationalist, they are not my favorite, but they are not all dictators in waiting. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Owain | |
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Author: Paddy (Scotland) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 08:30:18 12/03/04 Fri I suggest looking at: http://www.politicalcompass.org/ there is a test there that tells you where you lie on a revised political spectrum that does not look simply at "left" and "right", but also at "authoritarian" and "libertarian". [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Me | |
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Author: David (Australia) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 13:22:41 12/03/04 Fri I don't think this is entirely accurate but I got: Economic Left/Right: 4.62 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.49 I consider myself to be fairly right wing on economic issues, but I have very mixed views on social policies. While I would generally consider myself liberal on most social isses, I am not quite sure I deserve a score of -5.49 perhaps it was simply that particular mix of questions. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: My results | |
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Author: Owain (UK) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 18:58:30 12/03/04 Fri Me, I got pretty much what I expected. Economic Left/Right: -3.25 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.62 [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: politicalcompass | |
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Author: Ben.M(UK) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 09:16:16 12/03/04 Fri Obviously it isn't 100% accurate but I got Economic Left/Right: 0.38. Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 1.74. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: hmmm | |
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Author: Dave (UK) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 10:20:40 12/03/04 Fri That can't be right! I was placed near Tony Blair and Gerhard Schroder on the graph. Then however, I realised that their compass positions were determined by their speeches, rather than their actions. I can sleep easy now... [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Political Compass | |
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Author: David (Australia) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 13:41:55 12/03/04 Fri Dave, I can assure you based on my readings of your posts you are nothing but a solid Tory. I couldn't see a large amount of agreement between you and Blair/Schroder on many issues at all. I think it is difficult to take a one-size-fits-all approach to this sort of thing. For example if you included Australian questions such as on the Monarchy, aussie flag, British Empire/Commonwealth, Knighthoods, oath etc. I would clearly be seen as a tory, however with the political compass questions I appear to be very much a liberal. One thing is for sure though, I am definantly NOT a socialist/Labour supporter! [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: I got.......... | |
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Author: Ian (Australia) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 11:18:40 12/03/04 Fri Economic Left/Right: -1.88 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.90 That is, two squares to the left and four squares towards libertarian. Some of the questions obviously refer to specific national contexts, though, like the one about civil liberties and terrorism. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: I'm afraid that you'll find the majority of today's (British) youth stands with me and Owain | |
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Author: Roberdin [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 16:51:03 12/03/04 Fri Most people that I talk to (those who are British, at least) are usually pro flag-waving and pro-welfare state. I fail to see why this makes us 'facist'... no-one is proposing that we are superior to other races and have a destiny to capture all of the world or anything - we believe that all are equal, but when in Rome (that is, Britain), do as Romans (Britions) do (wave the flag). [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Its "Owain and I". Come on now. lol. Just kidding | |
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Author: Kevin (U.S.) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 17:39:23 12/03/04 Fri [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: Not exactly... | |
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Author: Roberdin [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 19:07:52 12/03/04 Fri No, it's "Owain and me", because if it was 'I', then "Today's youth stands with I" would also be correct - the sentence must make sense with the and clause removed - and it is not, AFAIK... [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: indeed roberdin | |
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Author: Owain (UK) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 18:38:06 12/03/04 Fri Indeed Roberdin. I am very hopeful about the future and the role todyas youth will play in it. I am thankful I wasnt born 30 years earlier as my life would probably have been one of frustration and anger. As it is I believe we will soon be able to get Britain back on track and end the leftist disaster story of the twentieth century. [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |
| [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Subject: You are probably not fascists, but… | |
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Author: Steph (U.S.) [ Edit | View ] |
Date Posted: 20:22:12 12/03/04 Fri Some people get very worried about this because strictly speaking fascism is a form of socialism. What Ludwig von Mises called socialism of the German pattern. It differed from orthodox Marxist socialism or orthodox democratic socialism in that it called not for state ownership of the means of production, but rather state control of the means of production. While democratic socialism was an out growth of Marxism that developed in the 1890s when many Marxists realized that in democratic capitalist societies, the working class has no revolutionary potential, in as far as their standard of living tends to increase. Fascism on the other hand is a development of the German welfare state. Modern democratic socialism like Blair’s Labour Party are in fact mildly fascist in as far as they have renounced the goal of state ownership of the means of production and substituted the idea of state regulation and welfare. However, most democratic socialist parties, have maintained the internationalist bent that is a legacy of Marx’s idea of the international working class and are of course democratic. Orthodox fascism will exhibit the following symptoms: revolutionary violence (aimed against real enemies of the fascist state such as labor unionists, democrats and capitalists; against competing forms of socialism e.g. social democrats and communists; and against scapegoats such as jews, gypsies, etc.), extreme nationalism, antipathy to liberal ideas (representative democracy, capitalism, individual rights etc.), state control of the means of production, and a robust welfare state. Now of course not all fascist states or movements have all of these characteristics. Notably most did not carry revolutionary violence to the extreme seen in Nazi Germany. Argentina for example while fascist was not as revolutionary as Germany. The more of the above traits a person or movement has the more fascist it is. That is not to say that the two of you are fascists, in fact, if you are against increases in state power by the current labour government then you are of course less fascist than them. There is nothing wrong with patriotism, pride in your country for its long history of democracy, individual rights, and industrial achievement and a desire to defend it. But people do get leery when they here nationalist and socialist together, now I hope you understand why. B.T.W. As a libertarian, I must ask why in the name of god are you in favor of the welfare state? Cheers, Steph [ Post a Reply to This Message ] |